13 year old NY state record holder

[Andy_C]

"Quality of experience can be a tremendously difference maker even if you haven't been at it for very long!" Suggest you go and talk to the senior physicians in your hospital and see what they say about that!

Not trying to usurp experience or authority for that matter. Just saying, you can have a good newbie and a bad newbie! Perhaps some of the more "haughty" doctors won't take the comment so well but senior physicians will generally say about the same: Learn well in med school/take in as much as you can and you'll be fine, learn poorly/waste time and you'll be crying in hospital wishing you were elsewhere! It's all about how you respond to your training, you can sit in the class but you have to be present and active! I don't want to present time of experience and quality of experience as if they were unrelated - where in fact they are two pieces of a larger whole. If we want to get philosophical and metaphysical, we could ask the question - "what is time?" A person who under-utilizes their time does not see a week the same way as a person who lives a lifetime in one day! Essentially, it's up to a person to make the very most out of what they have. There is also a factor of who receives good training. I consider myself to be exceptionally lucky that I ran into the right pole vault crowd from day one! Miraculously lucky even! Regardless of how well I would have used my time, it wouldn't be the same if I didn't have my "pole vault upbringing". Training/studying diligently is all good but there's no sense in practicing the wrong thing perfectly!

I'll give another possible answer tomorrow - gotta finish an assignment right now!

-Andrew

[RPVA03]

Here is what I see. However, I don't know if it's what Alan is looking for. I think she has a pretty flat take-off and could be jumping up more. I also see her rowing her arms forward instead of swinging all the way up.

[altius]

This was the feedback I sent

Sent: Sun May 09, 2010 7:25 pm
From: altius
To: mjaubbs40

In haste! First do not chase records. That can get in the way of longterm development and leave everyone disappointed if you dont get what you are aiming at.
Usually those records are set by physically precocious kids and she is like a young giraffe -all legs -give her time!!

Technically she is doing a lot of things correctly BUT perhaps in an effort to make the bar she is PULLING with the top hand as she swings -this raises her centre of mass - in itself this a bad thing because it will slow pole rotation - but it also makes it difficult for her to get her hips above her head - because her head is continually rising - so she is never in position to extend up the pole - instead has to flag our towards the bar in an effort to clear it. This may be because she intuitively feels that she HAS to get up to the bar and pulling seems one way to get there. Sure the head goes back but that MAY be a reaction to the feet dropping out OR simply another way to give herself the feeling that she is getting the hips up.

It is only one jump but I am sure the major problem will be there every time she jumps - it is not uncommon but not easy to eliminate either. it is an off season issue -which is why trying for big continually trying for heights will make it difficult for her to change things. Lots of swinging drills with no pull on the pole until she had moved her hips into a good position and possibly a high proportion of still pole jumps over a bar MAY resolve the problem.

Hope this helps

[altius]

This is what i suggested to cure the problem - Hopefully her coach will come back in a while to let us know if this is working!

Sent: Mon May 10, 2010 9:38 pm
From: altius
To: mjaubbs40

The pull up is very obvious in the first one!! The drill i would recommend is long swings where she does not try to go up but simply swings to try to land on the back of the pad she will not get far if she pulls with the right hand early but she will if she pulls with the left hand early.

When you start training again try and get her running in front of herself. Overall she is doing many things very well - for her age and height she is fabulous. Al

[Barefoot]

I must admit, this threw me off when Altius wrote: "I must admit that in the past twenty years I have only seen two athletes - both girls -with this fault. It must be eliminated asap - so how would you go about it???????"

In the last few years I've seen many young vaulters pull with the top arm, including boys. Karmen pulls far less than many I have seen... I'll concede it's a major fault if left uncorrected, but hardly rare in my experience.

[KirkB]

... Technically she is doing a lot of things correctly BUT perhaps in an effort to make the bar she is PULLING with the top hand as she swings -this raises her centre of mass ...

I thought I called this. My post from the top of page 2:

... the MAJOR and most obvious problem... Take another look -especially at the drills.

On the drill: Hunching her shoulders and pulling up ... especially with the bottom arm ... way too early ... then dropping into an inversion. Rather unorthodox ... and inefficient. But hey, she's only 13!

Kirk

All I added today was the underlining.

Kirk

[rainbowgirl28]

All my current boy vaulters wrestle in the winter, and they all have tended to pull with the top arm. My top guy has a very strong upper body and he is the worst offender He can vault a foot over his handgrip with a bent top arm the entire time

[KirkB]

... My top guy has a very strong upper body and he is the worst offender ...

Yeh ... I had that bad habit in HS too ... from climbing ropes (rightside up) too much. It's better to climb them upside down!

Kirk

[altius]

Sorry I mislead you folks. It was not intentional! I am well aware that many beginners tend to pull themselves up on the pole when they first jump . What I should have said was that I have only seen two - otherwise well coached girls note - with this problem in a long coaching career. If you are seeing a lot of athletes doing this after even a few months jumping then there is a serious problem with the way they are being introduced to the event. Especial apologies to KirkB because because I deliberately ignored your observation in order to give the youngsters a chance to throw their ideas into the ring. Remember "Spoon feeding only prepares you to recognise a spoon". Fortunately you made it easy by not pointing out the serious implications of that particular problem.

But how often have you been sitting near a group of coaches who are quite happily noting and commenting on the 'faults' they see in all the athletes involved- without any understanding of the real causes of those faults - such as the run take off etctetc and of course the physical limitations of the athlete involved.

I hope some of you found it an interesting exercise - the coaching process involves a process of diagnosis similar to that in medicine -although never approaching the ridiculous nature of the scenarios in House. On a side note I had to twice go to a clinic in the US last year with something I and my friends thought was pretty serious but never saw a single doctor far less a team of the size involved in that program

[Barefoot]

Altius...

The exercise is well worth the time and illuminating.

What we all see as coaches is often only what we are looking for. The vault happens so fast, that without cameras I know I am limited by my prejudices, my scope of vision, and narrow train of thought. Even with slow motion, I will "see" only so much.

This is part of the reason I encourage multiple eyes (other coaches and athletes) for my own vaulters. I try to maintain my perspective as a central clearing house and final arbiter of their technical development, but I make no bones over the fact that there is much I don't know and less that I will see in any given vault. Though this is part of a discussion in the coaches forum.

My own vaulters have often suffered from the arm pulling, or "come to mama" syndrome. In part this is due to the absence of a high bar at our school, though after three years of haggling with the school they appear to have relented and allowed us to put in a bar as the football team has said they want it as well. In other part, it is due to the fact that I am obsessive about the ground work first in our limited three months together and I will almost always focus my attention on run and plant first.

If I may suggest... My kids who exhibit the worst pulling arm are usually ones who's hands are not in proper support of the pole. My experience is that the tendency to pull begins with the hands at plant. Part of my solution for my own athletes who pull has been to teach that from the ground up they should be moving the pole up to the bar... this begins with proper hands in support of the pole. Young vaulters who are bar obsessed will often pull and say it feels natural to do so... But it's much harder for them to pull if they are positioned to push the pole above their heads.

[mjaubbs40]

An update on Karmen:
We've had 2 practices for long swings and it's gone well. When you have a 13 year old girl who is 5-10 and not a gymnast, there are plenty of issues swinging upside down--"what is technically desirable must be physically possible". She is improving and will continue to do so. I appreciate the positive feedback and encouragement. It's challenging to balance being a coach and dad--this season has been the most fun I've ever had in my brief 13 year coaching career.
At a meet friday there were 25-30mph tailwinds with gusts around 40mph. The crew could barely keep the crossbar on. It was a night meet--girls were supposed to go 1st, but as they were warming up the meet director came and switched it to boys. So it ended up being a lot later at night than we wanted (Because she had a meet the next day at the site of the state meet).
She came in at 10' (a new opening height PR) and made it 1st attempt by quite a bit. She was gripping 11-9 on a 13/160 with standards at 80cm. In an effort to save her legs, we raised the bar to 11-6 for the NY state leader. Same grip--1st attempt blew through (standards at 80cm). Raised the grip to 12'--2nd attempt just knicked it off with her butt. Same grip--3rd attempt, put 3-6" of hip height on the crossbar but brushed the bar lightly with her forearm/elbow--winds took the bar down. She was disappointed, but did great things and we were happy. Sorry, no video.
The next day (Saturday) we traveled to the site of the state meet (3 hours from our house). She was pretty tired and did not look good. Came in at 10', made it on her 2nd attempt. Almost made 10-6 on her 3rd but did not look good. Obviously, she took Sunday off and I was glad to not have her vault on Tuesday at her final dual meet because the facility was not legal (though they contested the PV anyways) and the weather was terrible--our vaulters did not jump. "Championship season" begins now with counties, sectionals, state qualifiers and then states. If she jumps 11' 1/4" she wants to compete in the emerging elite section at nationals. 1 meet per week now, which is much nicer than having 2-3 meets per week. Hard to believe the season will be over in just 23-30 days.

[mjaubbs40]

Karmen won her county championship today. There was a light headwind which pretty much died out by the end of the night. She held 11-6 on a 13/150 from 6L. She came in at 9-6 and was clean through 10-6, which won. She then raised the bar to 11-0 and was super close on all 3 attempts--probably the best jumps she's ever taken in her life. Standards ranged from 70cm-80cm. She also lifted heavy and trained hard yesterday as we're not tapering or peaking until states. Sure would be nice to have that bar stay up though. Next meet is sectionals, then state q's, then states. Emerging elite at Nationals if we get 11' in time. Her 14th birthday will come in July.