never knew i was this flexible!

[LHSVaulterJJR]

no not at all lol ... im not trying to block ... but i do believe in putting pressure with the bottom arm UPWARDS and driving in your chin and chest. "prestretch" as Allan launder would say. i think using your bottom arm just as tim mcmichael does in this video is the way it should be done to drive your chest and chin in. get a good pre stretch and keep the benifits of a fast swing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPHdlD8G ... re=related

actually that vid pretty much shows how i want my form to be! just add a full leg drive and an Lposition at the top and its the vault i want. tim also drives his knee and then lifts it to his chest as he swings. like i was trying to illustrate before

i tried this out on my highbar last night as well and it just doesnt work. BUT THATS BECAUSE you cant get anywhere near the stretch you can when you actually have pre existing momentum built up from your run. when you perform this on a pole, you get a "pre stretch" as alan launder would say and this particular pre-stretch occurs between that front drive leg and the back trail leg. It makes your trail leg WANT to swing to catch up to your lead leg.

you can vaguely see how the trail leg wants to swing up to the drive leg in these vids on some of the 3 and 5 step jogadins, but i apalogize when it come to the five step full vaults. i got the stretch in some of the full vaults "although less exagerated" its harder to achieve the split during longer or faster runs, just like its harder to achieve a free takeoff from a 7 then it is from a 3 step approach. plus this was not my main focus today. i was also focusing on a couple other things in todays practice. such as finding my top hand during the swing up and invert. again there are many flaws in my vaults for now but lets see what we can make of todays practice in regards to the new form im suggesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZW_Kt0U8bY

any other comments are welcome

[KirkB]

I'm sorry, the physics/biomechanics and such are just NOT MAKING SENSE. I just went out and tried it on my high bar, and the swing is MUCH slower with the leg out. On a pole it will be worse because you're fighting to catch up to the big bend/recoil you got from the extra drive!

PP, I think you may be confused in thinking that he should be SWINGING in this split position. Think of it as BEFORE the swing. It's part of finishing the takeoff.

So he drives not only his lead KNEE, but his entire lead LEG, then immediately tucks it in as he STARTS his swing.

I know you're thinking that the swing should start IMMEDIATELY after the pole hits the box. This is not true. The swing should start immediately after the takeoff is COMPLETE ... unless you're trying to follow the 6.40 model.

PP, if you're thinking that there's some passivity in this technique, I don't think so ... as long as he doesn't pause in this split.

LHS, the 6.40 model is too advanced to even think about at your level, so if that's what PP's referring to, I wouldn't worry about it. However, you mentioned something about this thread belonging in the Advanced Technique thread. I don't think so, and I'll reply to you about this in my next post. This one was just in reply to PP.

Kirk

[powerplant42]

Well, I was really only thinking about the Petrov model... which is BASED ON CHAIN THEORY...

One continuous movement... one continuous chain. What happens when you pull your knee back in? Mechanically speaking? Try thinking out the physics of it.

I firmly believe that if you pursue this technique seriously, you won't be able to beat the pole's recoil unless you tuck, which is sub-optimal for its own reasons... In other words, you are just plain wasting your time.

But, if you're willing to take the risk (after being warned of the impending outcome), prove all 'Petrovians' right once more... I guess I'll think about it like that.

[KirkB]

I'm just saying we haven't even seen LHS do a REAL JUMP yet, so it's too early to prejudge, and you're talking too much theory. Give him a chance to strut his technique. I think we owe him that much.

I think I'm closer to having experienced his "proposed" technique (the split), albeit without the straight lead leg than you, so I think you owe me a chance to properly assess the viability of his technique too.

Chill. Relax. Go for a cup of coffee, and come back in a week ... AFTER we see a real jump!

Kirk

EDIT: Fixed a typo.

[powerplant42]

Chill. Relax. Go for a cup of coffee, and come back in a week ... AFTER we see a real jump!

Gladly.

[KirkB]

... im not trying to block ... but i do believe in putting pressure with the bottom arm UPWARDS and driving in your chin and chest. "prestretch" as Allan launder would say. i think using your bottom arm just as tim mcmichael does in this video is the way it should be done to drive your chest and chin in. get a good pre stretch and keep the benifits of a fast swing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPHdlD8G ... re=related

It's too early for me to classify you as a Petrover or a Drive Model vaulter. I need to see vids over a bar or bungee first. Just keep in mind that at some point soon, you'll have to make a choice on which route you decide to take. I don't think a mix is good. Stevenson is Petrov, and McMichael is Drive model. If you're trying to emulate Stevenson, then you should go Petrov.

LHS, take a look at Greg Duplantis' vids ... you'll find the link on this thread: http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=16077&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=duplantis+videos

The reason you should take a good look is becuz he's a very short guy that was very successful with the Petrov model. He did have wheels, tho, which it sound like you don't have. Anyway, I think he might be inspirational for you.

... i guess wede be able to move this into the advanced technique forum. Which is where it belongs but due to my lack of performance here it is doomed! for now

LHS, this doesn't belong in the Advanced forum, and I'll tell you why ...

It's not the type of technical adjustment that you'd make once you get over 17' or more. You're thinking about this now, and you're experimenting with it now, so you need to figure it out NOW!

To wait until you vault higher would be a mistake. You will find it very difficult to get back to this technique if you imprint a "normal" lead leg drive into your vault this year and next, then decide to convert to your new technique in college. Quite frankly, I think it's now or never.

I'm not going to say DROP it (as PP seems to be saying), and I'm not going to say DO IT ... yet. I need to see a REAL JUMP to know more. Along the way, I'm willing to give you pointers to see if you can adapt your technique to something that will get you over that 15' you talk about as "doable". Let's do this a step at a time.

I see you getting into a lot of detail with PP here, about your jagodins. By definition, and jogodin is only for the takeoff part of the vault, and (almost) by definition, you press hard with your bottom arm in the jagodin drill. That's the part of the jagodin that I detest, but I think it's unfair to judge how you MIGHT vault over a bar by watching jagodin drills, so that's why I'm anxious to see you jump. Honestly, I really don't understand why you're spending so much time and energy ... jumping AND talking ... re jagodins. That's such an unimportant part of your overall training program (or should be, IMHO), that I think you're wasting your time ... in both doing them and talking about them. LET'S SEE SOME REAL VAULTING!

Kirk

[KirkB]

I think you switched from thread to thread too quickly!

Yes. My bad. I fixed it up tho, so maybe you can remove any reference to H.I.S. from your posts on this thread. My bad.

Good catch!

Kirk

[LHSVaulterJJR]

haha you guys are great. and as for the 6.4 model.. isnt that what bubka used? if so .. i still saw him have his trail leg back ... not swinging up IMMEDIATELY after his foot leaves the ground.. thats probably a diff thread altogether ... .. not to many advanced vaulters like this new technique on utube either ... lemme get it right before we throw it out the window... im sure when high jumpers first started jumping over the bar on there back they were criticized and maybe took a step back in height .... but they finally got it right and made some progress in the world record.... i could just be wasting my time but i mean even if i miss the bend of the pole that way .. i could just create more bend by ( o god i know im getting murdered for this one ) rowing with my shoulders and arms. keeping my arms straight .. but rowing to where my top hand would be in between my legs, at knee level, and my bottom arm would just about be a little above my hips out to the side. my feet above the top of my pole in an advanced L position. and then ide catch that bend because i would have created a bit more thanks to a quickened swing with a row and higher hips at invert.

just throwing ideas out there ... right or wrong

[LHSVaulterJJR]

Honestly I see alot of resemblance in the way duplantis and mcmichael vault? right or wrong? ... either way i dont think i have the tree trunk quads of height stevenson had haha ... so ill prolly wind up a drive vaulter like mcmichael or duplantis( if there techniques are the same model) you say there not but from the video i posted on this thread of tim.. it really does look extremely similar to tim ... w.e .. ill get you some full vaults tomorrow or friday.

[KirkB]

OK LHS, I'll try to answer your questions. But you have to realize that you can only spend so much time on PVP! Ha! Ha! You need to get out there and TRAIN! ... and videotape! Talk is cheap. I wanna see a real vault!

Honestly I see a lot of resemblance in the way duplantis and mcmichael vault? right or wrong? ...

Wrong! Duplantis DEFINITELY followed the Petrov model. His technique was VERY similar to mine, so it's quite easy for me to identify. I doubt that you know what cues to look for. I'll tell you later, but first, I wanna see ya jump! McMichael DEFINITELY did not follow the Petrov model.

... as for the 6.4 model.. isnt that what bubka used? if so .. i still saw him have his trail leg back ... not swinging up IMMEDIATELY after his foot leaves the ground..

Bubka used the Petrov model. In fact, he's the reference vaulter for that model. Just as no one has come close (Hooker's still not there) to his WR, no one does the Petrov model better than Bubka. In fact, they developed the model together, actually. You're exactly right about his trail leg back.

The 6.40 model is what Agapit PROPOSES for how someone might break the WR. There's been some debate about whether Bubka COULD HAVE cleared 6.40 with the hip height he had over 6.01 in 1997, and Agapit does use Bubka as a sort of reference model for his 6.40 model.

However, Bubka HAS NOT cleared 6.40, and even if he did (on that 6.01 jump), it was not with all of the features that Agapit is PROPOSING for the 6.40 model. That's enough for this thread. Any more detail belongs on the 6.40 thread.

Again, LHS, I'm just trying to answer your questions, but please don't get side-tracked re the 6.40 model. Even if you spent a week to read and absorb everything that's been written about it on PVP, you'd just be wasting your time. You haven't even figured the Petrov model out yet, so please understand that you need to learn to walk before you learn to run. The 6.40 model is VERY advanced ... even for elites!

.. not too many advanced vaulters like this new technique on utube either

LHS, I like it ... a LOT ... I think ... so far ... but I haven't SEEN it yet!

I think you can learn from Duplantis, and I think you can learn from Stevenson. I also think that you might learn from Hooker. You might be able to find your niche in between the technique of these 3 somewhere ... with your split ... to SOME degree of exaggeration. Time will tell.

... lemme get it right before we throw it out the window...

Exactly!

... even if i miss the bend of the pole that way .. i could just create more bend by ( o god i know im getting murdered for this one ) rowing ...

Don't go there yet! I'm going to take the stance that you WON'T need to row! So it's WAY too early to even discuss that! I'm guessing that you just need to tuck in your lead leg quicker. But here I go speculating again ... I need to see a REAL JUMP!

Kirk