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This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.

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agapit
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Unread postby agapit » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:26 pm

powerplant42 wrote:It is extremely difficult to stay behind the pole (and actually be in control) without using the bottom arm to help out the process. If you can't stay behind the pole well, then you can't load the pole well, so it won't rotate as well. The bottom arm should only provide enough resistance to keep the vaulter behind the pole in a good position for the swing. With this, the pole does get some bend from the bottom arm, but it is not a large force. However, the initial force exerted by the bottom arm to keep oneself behind the pole right after take-off provides a bend that can be increased much more easily by the TOP arm/the vaulter's inertia which might not have been able to load the pole as efficiently without it. There it is.


Dear friend,

Staying behind the pole is a result of the correct take-off. I know you are probably too young to know, but people on still poles or bamboo stayed behind the pole not because they pressed against it in any way with the bottom arm.

They also could not delay the natural swing and inversion because it would kill their ability to gain any height over the grip height.
If you simply think about that, why would you do something different on the fiberglass pole? Say you are vaulting on very small and soft pole the same grip as a bamboo at what grip would you do something different that you would do on bamboo pole.

I am trying to make this as straight forward as possible that is why I bring this example. So, at what grip would you do something different and why?

Ask your coach before doing this, but I think, this could be a good exercise for you to use a small pole with a small grip. The pole should not bend more than a foot from its chord (line between your grip and the bottom of the pole). Use 6 or 8 steps (3-4 lefts) and try to clear some heights, perhaps than, you would begin to understand the topic in a different way.

Practicing this exercise you will notice that with the limited speed and grip the height you clear will depend on the gymnastic work you do on the pole. You will also notice that if after the jump you stop moving up and over the bar even for a millisecond it is over. You would not be able to clear even your grip height. When you try this, think why would ever you do something different on your big pole?

You can use 25-30 jumps like that per session. Do 3-4 sessions in the fall or now if your coach thinks it is a good idea.
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Unread postby swtvault » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:25 pm

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed Brad Walker exploiting the left arm pull for the last 3 years? Perhaps this has been one of the reasons for his success? Any other observations on this? Forgive me if this has been discussed already!
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Unread postby vault3rb0y » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:40 pm

Great stiff polers also had no knee drive and used almost a double-legged swing. They also used a more narrow grip. Why is that? Why do flexible pole vaulters do these things?

I am not entirely convinced that applying the entire technical model and all its implications of stiff poling to current pole vaulting is the best way. All the principles, yes, but there are some things that must be done slightly different. Otherwise we would never see a 5'9" vaulter go 19'6". Proportionally, how high could a 5'9" vaulter go in the stiff pole era? I doubt a 5'9" vaulter could ever compete with the 6'3" guys.
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Unread postby powerplant42 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:07 pm

Staying behind the pole is a result of the correct take-off. I know you are probably too young to know, but people on still poles or bamboo stayed behind the pole not because they pressed against it in any way with the bottom arm.


I don't know too much bamboo vaulting, but I'm guessing that those poles were quite soft compared to say, a 210 weight UCS/Spirit. The stiff poles were short enough that the vaulters of that era could get away without using their bottom arm to help load the pole. I am not trying to implicate a force bend or anything like that, just that resistance from the bottom arm at take-off contributes minimally to the load of the pole, but it's enough to get it started for the top arm. Why do people get fiberfaced if the bottom arm shouldn't stay relatively strong?
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Unread postby Tim McMichael » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:29 am

agapit wrote:
Tim McMichael wrote:Agapit, I hate to point out the obvious, but if you will notice in the picture you reference, Bubka's bottom hand is ON the pole. I have asked you to show me someone who can plant with their hand OFF the pole as you have repeatedly assured me can be done. Answering my question by showing me a free takeoff does not prove your claim.

An athlete who has always used their bottom arm too much by trying to push it through the pole during the first part of the vault may benefit greatly from trying to feel that they are not using it at all, and they will benefit more by learning how to pull with it just after takeoff. But what an athlete feels they are doing and what they are actually doing are two different things. My challenge remains unanswered. Show me someone who can plant a competition pole with their bottom hand off the pole before it hits the back of the box.


Well Tim,

I do not know if it is beneficial to try to take-off on the competition pole with one arm. It is also hard to plant with one arm. You can slide the pole as Tye does, but this is not the point. You must hold the pole with both arms, but this does not mean you should try to bend it.

I brought this example many times. Imagine jumping on bamboo pole. At no point, as I remember, you would resist it with the left arm. Never the less the bamboo pole would bend. This is very similar to what I am advocating on the fiberglass pole.

Does it help?


Agapit,

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that the one armed plant cannot be done or that it should not be done? And it is not at all difficult to attempt to plant with one arm. Simply let go with the bottom hand before the pole hits the back of the box. I hate to say this, but I think you are still avoiding the question.

The other problem I have is that when I present information that deals with the role of the bottom arm in detail, I feel that it is ignored. You made the initial proposition, and I am challenging you to defend it. At least explain how an object with mass and motion can have no effect on the object it is attached to. If you can do it, I will be the first to applaud you and to change what I teach.

Your reference to the bamboo days is helpful. If the bottom arm plays no part in the fiberglass era, why the much wider grip? No great bamboo valuter ever jumped with their hands more than six inches apart. By the same token, I am unaware of anyone in the fiberglass era who has cleared 5.80 with a grip narrower than 18 inches. In the transition from bamboo and steel to fiberglass there were several vaulters who bent fiberglass poles with narrow grips, but their jumps lacked power, and they had to use very small poles. They also had to bend the pole much less than modern vaulters by necessity. Their poles did not have sail pieces and broke if bent beyond a point that modern poles easily maintain integrity. The explosion of higher vaults that came with the innovation of fiberglass did not occur until sail pieces became essential design elements and wider grips and bigger bends became the norm. Also, as Vaulterboy has already observed, fiberglass made it possible for athletes shorter than 5' 9" to set world records when there was no hope at all for an athlete that size in the bamboo and steel pole days. The wider grip was necessary because of the role the bottom arm plays in getting the pole to bend, and this bend allowed shorter athletes to become world class.

All that being said, I do not advocate an athlete consciously trying to bend the pole with their bottom arm, and I believe that the ability to stiff pole well is of great benefit in learning to vault properly. Anyone who comes to me with a poor run and plant had better be ready for a month or more of stiff pole vaulting.

Let me give you an analogy. A novice golfer who wants to learn to hit the ball a long way must first give up the feel of using their arms at all. When they consciously try to hit the ball with their arms and hands they ruin the speed of the swing and the timing of the stroke, mostly because this causes the hands to move too soon, tenses muscles that must be relaxed and keeps the rest of the body from playing its role in the swing. This is, however, very different from saying that the arms and hands have no part in the golf swing at all, or that it is unnecessary to learn to use them correctly.

The same principle applies to the vault. The usual process of teaching a vaulter to use their bottom arm correctly involves setting up the proper mechanics of the approach and takeoff and getting them to feel they are not using the bottom arm at all. Pushing with the bottom arm will make it impossible to achieve the position necessary for a powerful and effective swing. This is why a world class vaulter may be unaware of using the bottom arm to start the bend of the pole, even though this is one of the things that makes her great. What she feels, however, is not what is actually happening. This is also why being able to perform a great vault does not necessarily make one an expert. In some instances I believe it is better that the athlete be unaware of much of what they are doing correctly. I feel it is my duty as a coach, however, to know both the feel and the reality, even if all I teach is the feel. This is why I am challenging you on this point, Agapit. I realize you are trying to innovate, but I believe both history and physics are against you. Prove me wrong.

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Unread postby agapit » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:35 pm

Tim McMichael wrote:The other problem I have is that when I present information that deals with the role of the bottom arm in detail, I feel that it is ignored. You made the initial proposition, and I am challenging you to defend it. At least explain how an object with mass and motion can have no effect on the object it is attached to. If you can do it, I will be the first to applaud you and to change what I teach.

Your reference to the bamboo days is helpful. If the bottom arm plays no part in the fiberglass era, why the much wider grip? No great bamboo valuter ever jumped with their hands more than six inches apart. By the same token, I am unaware of anyone in the fiberglass era who has cleared 5.80 with a grip narrower than 18 inches. In the transition from bamboo and steel to fiberglass there were several vaulters who bent fiberglass poles with narrow grips, but their jumps lacked power, and they had to use very small poles. They also had to bend the pole much less than modern vaulters by necessity. Their poles did not have sail pieces and broke if bent beyond a point that modern poles easily maintain integrity. The explosion of higher vaults that came with the innovation of fiberglass did not occur until sail pieces became essential design elements and wider grips and bigger bends became the norm. Also, as Vaulterboy has already observed, fiberglass made it possible for athletes shorter than 5' 9" to set world records when there was no hope at all for an athlete that size in the bamboo and steel pole days. The wider grip was necessary because of the role the bottom arm plays in getting the pole to bend, and this bend allowed shorter athletes to become world class.

All that being said, I do not advocate an athlete consciously trying to bend the pole with their bottom arm, and I believe that the ability to stiff pole well is of great benefit in learning to vault properly. Anyone who comes to me with a poor run and plant had better be ready for a month or more of stiff pole vaulting.



Fair enough. I will deal with this request for as long as necessary to get you answers.

For starters:

“At least explain how an object with mass and motion can have no effect on the object it is attached to.â€
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Unread postby Tim McMichael » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:21 pm

Here is a piece of an article by Petrov himself from the IAAF website. It explains exactly what I believe and teach concerning the action of the bottom arm.

"The left arm is not trying to bend the pole; it plants it FIRMLY towards the bar and THEN transfers the effort to the right hand, so that the pole is bent by the impact of the vaulter’s speed and mass. The vaulter, alert to the resilience of the pole, must perform all the subsequent actions on the pole as on a rigid support."

The words in all capitals are emphasis that I have added. If the bottom arm plays absolutely no role in the plant, the words "firmly" and "then" have no meaning in this article. "Firmly" indicates some degree of rigidity in the bottom arm at the completion of the plant, and the word "then" implies that the bottom arm exerts some influence before the transfer of energy. Having the bottom arm frim at the beginning of the takeoff is not the same as trying to bend the pole with it. I feel that this confirms my contention that the bottom arm plays a passive yet positive role in beginning the bending of the pole.

As for the wide and narrow grip question, I have no doubt that a person able to touch the rim of a basketball goal with his his head can jump well with a 12 inch grip. Someone with that kind of jumping ability would be very high off the ground before the pole began to take load, thus reducing the role of the bottom arm.

Understand that when I am talking about the influence of the bottom arm, I am talking about a very, very, small effect. With the end of a pole resting on the ground you can bend it quite a bit just by tapping it with your finger. The closer to your grip you tap it, however, the less it bends. When I ask how an object with mass and movement can possibly have no effect the object it it attached to, I am talking about the arm itself and not the entire vaulter. The arm moves "firmly" up and away from the body's center of mass and, therefore, has kinetic energy of its own apart from the rest of the body. This must have an influence on the pole when it impacts the box, but it is only a very minor influence before the energy is transferred to the top hand which is the primary factor that keeps the pole moving. After the initial influence of the bottom arm, it is no longer needed except as a balancing factor. The sooner the energy is transferred from the bottom to the top hand the better. This is why the bottom arm appears to collapse on good jumpers.

Let me tell you how close we are in opinion. If I take on the task of teaching a vaulter who has cleared 17' or better, one of the first things they must learn to do is to make 15' with their hands 6 inches apart. This teaches them how very small the role of the bottom arm is and how important it is to take the energy of the jump on the top arm. Most of them cannot believe this is possible until experience teaches them differently. However, they have to do this on a very small pole. I would never ask them to plant a competition pole with their hands that close together. If they could, however, touch the top of the backboard with their head I would have no problem with them using such a narrow grip in competition.

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Unread postby agapit » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:39 pm

Tim McMichael wrote:Here is a piece of an article by Petrov himself from the IAAF website. It explains exactly what I believe and teach concerning the action of the bottom arm.

"The left arm is not trying to bend the pole; it plants it FIRMLY towards the bar and THEN transfers the effort to the right hand, so that the pole is bent by the impact of the vaulter’s speed and mass. The vaulter, alert to the resilience of the pole, must perform all the subsequent actions on the pole as on a rigid support."



Tim you may have mistaken two issues. First the plant is something that happens before pole impact and yes the left arm is planting the pole. Then in words of Petrov, it transfers the effort to the right hand, so that the pole is bent by the impact of the vaulter’s speed and mass.

This is exactly what I said earlier. The impulse (speed x mass) is transferred though the right hand/arm and not the left (bottom arm).

Do not confuse the plant and the transfer of impulse (mass x speed) these are two different moments/actions. The plant puts the pole in the position for the vaulter to take-off (before resistance from the pole) and then in the air the impulse (generated during the run up) is transferred though the right hand/arm.

Right?
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Unread postby agapit » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:58 pm

Tim McMichael wrote: The vaulter, alert to the resilience of the pole, must perform all the subsequent actions on the pole as on a rigid support."


Let me tell you how close we are in opinion.


“Rigid supportâ€
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Unread postby powerplant42 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:25 pm

I think someone should just go and test these theories and be done with it...
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Unread postby vaultman18 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:28 pm

powerplant42 wrote:I think someone should just go and test these theories and be done with it...


Surely you are not suggesting Agapit has not tested these "theories". :idea:

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Unread postby vault3rb0y » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:30 pm

Tim tried planting a pole with no bend (one handed) on a video once. It didnt work. It was stiff until he swung.
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