Foot and Hand Alignment at Takeoff

[Tim McMichael]

Here is something I have found helpful in determining where an athlete’s step should be. It has been a doctrine forever that the toe should be directly beneath the top hand. There is an anatomical reason that this is not quite accurate. Everyone’s arms have a degree of bow to them.

http://www.treemo.com/files/treemo.tmcm ... 924.or.jpg

The wrist does not line up exactly with the shoulder. This degree of deflection varies greatly from one athlete to the next. I have found that aligning the step with the elbow instead of the hand works a lot better. Here are pictures of two athletes at takeoff. Dragila has a lot of bow in her arms.

http://www.treemo.com/files/treemo.tmcm ... 922.or.jpg

You can see that her step is much closer to on if measured from the elbow. Spielberg on the other hand does not have as much bow, so the difference between the alignment of her hand and elbow is much less.

http://www.treemo.com/files/treemo.tmcm ... 920.or.jpg

The thing that clued me in to this is that many athletes I worked with looked like they had an outside takeoff when their step was directly beneath their hand. They sagged the pole, and their jumps suffered. They jumped their best when taking off a little under. I found out that everybody’s best spot for their takeoff foot was directly beneath their elbow and this was different from one athlete to the next. This is, I think, one of the reasons many vaulters jump well taking off a little under.

[altius]

Sorry Tim - A great post but for my five cents I believe that you are making a virtue out of a fault. Take a look at Feofanova and tell me what you see. The fact is that the flexion in the elbow you see with many athletes is because they are not strong enough to withstand the forces created as the pole hits the back of the box and the hand is driven backwards, thus causing the flexion at the elbow. Ideally the body should be solid from take off foot to top hand when it HITS the pole so there is very limited, if any flexion at the elbow. This is why you will see many Petrov model vaulters doing a drill in which they deliberately exaggerate the forward punch of the right side arm and hand after take off and make that unit rigid and high. Any flexion in the top arm - or softness anywhere - bleeds away energy which could be transferred into the pole and also reduces - if only minimally- pole/ground angle.

Of course if the athlete takes off up through the pole - like Feofanova - they are less likely to create a problem for themselves in this phase than if they take off flat and under - like Stacey.

Still once again you give us food for thought.

[Tim McMichael]

While it is true that a poor plant can cause the top arm to buckle backward, I am more talking about the actual anatomical structure of the arm. Almost no one has a perfectly straight arm. The first picture in my post is a photo of my own arm fully extended. The red lines show a slight bend. My arm is anatomically very straight, most athletes have arms that are bent more than that.

If my thesis is correct and the posture of the body lines up with the elbow instead of the hand, then this has to have an effect on plant mechanics. I am guessing that someone with a severely bent arm, not as a result of an incorrect plant bending it back, but as a result of the shape of the arm itself - might have a difficult time achieving a free takeoff. They would have to be closer to the pole as it hits the back of the box, and their arm would be in a weaker position to start with. I definitely do not think that this is a virtue. A bowed arm is a deficit no matter how you look at it. I think that a number of athletes have to compensate for this in their takeoffs with varying degrees of success. In my experience, taking off under is one of those compensations. I am not saying that this is a good compensation or that it cannot be overcome. Feofanova does a great job of doing just that.

I am not sure about all of the implications of the factors I am examining here, but here is another picture that I think is interesting. Note how Feofanova's body posture is perfectly aligned with her upper arm just before the pole contacts the back of the box.

http://www.treemo.com/files/treemo.tmcm ... 430.or.jpg

As a side note, very early in my career a coach told me that doing pullups and curls without fully extending the arms at the bottom of each rep would cause the arm to bend more as the athlete developed strength. He said that this was especially true for young athletes. I don't know if this is true, but I have been sure to extend fully on every pulling exercises I have ever done.

[fchipr]

Hey there Tim, So sorry for the long delays in many of my actions. But I can say this. You have a room reserved for you (and a guest if you like) at the Tahoe cabin again this year, and included are my UCS 14-180, 14-185, and your Essex 14-6 185. All have been stored in cases , indoors.

The Lake is really beautiful today with all the fresh snow. Remember those views?

I am not sure what exact vehicle I'll be driving, but one way or the other, we'll cover your transportation needs like last year. My son will likely not be there, but I have a new freshman vaulter that will be and maybe an ol track friend or two from UNReno days. Remember we have 3 rooms plus the couch, and the place comes with most of our food needs too.

Currently I will be there for sure from 2-6 January. I am vying for Dec 31 start date, but that is TBD.

Take care. Hope ya can swing it (or tuck it)...chuckle

Chip

[ADTF Academy]

Tim - I understand what you are referring to, however think of the arm position in relationship to this anatomical bend you describe.


The elbow will be pointing outward so the hand will still be above the elbow and should be still above the foot unless it was a lazy or bad plant and the hand is behind the elbow.


Try to straighten your arm and rotate the elbow forward now think about the plant and how you wouldn't break your shoulder. Great thought but I am not buying this as a reason someones hand might be behind their elbow/heel at touchdown of the takeoff step.

[ADTF Academy]

I stand corrected. This topic is actually more interesting than I thought.


Currently I have 10 college jumpers 11 including myself.


This seems to be an issue on half of my women jumpers. For some strange reason when they plant their elbow points forward. On the other half and almost all the guys it points out to the side.

For me when the elbow points forward it is awkward and tight for the ladies it feels normal and when the elbow is moved out it feels awkward and tight.

Then again these are the same girls that are having shoulder problems. I didn't think at first this was as big of an issue as I do now. The question I have is what if anything is causing this. I know I didn't teach them to do it. Is it a muscle imbalance, anatomical design flaw for vaulting, or just a random thing that needs to be addressed and worked out. It would be interesting if some other college coaches or club coaches take a look at their athletes and track the number of their vaulters on plant whose top arm elbow is pointing more forward or to the side.


Honestly i was dumb founded at 7 am this morning when I watched our girls have their top arm elbows pointing forward and they thought it felt natural.

[skyshark177]

Danny-
I would have to say that they're shoulder injuries are a direct result of them planting with they're elbow pointing in front. You've probably already tried to perform a simple plant drill on your own or stand and plant the pole into the box with your elbow pointing forward and notice that you shoulder is restricting the movement that is required to let the arm go free back behind the head. Of course, if you have the elbow point to the side like all the pictures in this discussion, you're arm is free to move back behind your head. I can probably guess that most of your girl’s injuries are around the inferior area of the shoulder or rotator cuff, if in fact they are pointing they're elbows straight forward. I don’t know if coaches might make the mistake that the elbow is in fact out to the side and not pointing forward from looking at a picture of a vaulter from a side angle. I think you would be able to notice it better from a diagonal view or forward or from-behind view better.

I think I would have to say that most girls would do this at first because they don't think they have the strength to load the pole. I believe I also have one girl, maybe more that do this too. This was a very good discussion that I don't think has ever come up before.
Thanks!

[Robert schmitt]

the bend that you are showing is more pronounced in women and why adtf acadamy sees the difference between the male and female vaulter. there is an actual name for it and averages for men and women. I'll se if I can dig it out of one of my old anatomy books.

[Robert schmitt]

Ahh found it - it is called Valgus deviation of the elbow or normal carrying angle of the elbow. "With the arms extended at the side, and the palms of the hand facing forward, the forearm and hands are normally held slightly away from the body. This is due to the normal carrying angle of the elbow, which is 5 to 15 degrees. This angle permits the straightened forearm to clear the side of the hips in swinging movements during walking, and is important when carrying objects."

since generally womens hips are more pronounced so is the carrying angle of the elbow. This can also be increased do to injury to the medial collateral ligament of the elbow-typically seen in pitchers on there throwing elbow. which I could also imagine being injured from vaulting.

[Tim McMichael]

My point exactly. 5 to 15 degrees is a huge range in terms of anatomy. This bow is present even if the elbow is turned to the side. I think a distinction must be made as to whether an athlete is pointing their elbow forwards or we are just looking at the natural shape of their arm. And I continue to believe that this has a great deal to do with how much underneath the top hand an athlete can be while still achieving an adequate takeoff. The posture of the torso, which is so important to the plant, aligns with the angle of the arm from shoulder to elbow, not from elbow to wrist. If it lines up from elbow to wrist the athlete will be hopelessly leaning backward. If the torso is straight up, or better, leaning slightly forward at the instant the pole starts to load, they will be in good shape even if they are slightly under the vertical plane of the top hand.

At least that is what I think at present. Since posture and takeoff point are so important, I need to know any thoughts you guys might have concerning how to either fix or accomodate these structural differences.

[Robert schmitt]

You could get a goniometer (a simple instrument to measure ranges of motion) probably costs < $10. measure the degree of lateral variation and measure the length of the forearm -elbow to center of the palm- with those two measurements you could calculate how far the forearm and hand devitate from the centerline of the upper arm and arive at a correction factor for that vaulter.

[Tim McMichael]

since generally womens hips are more pronounced so is the carrying angle of the elbow. This can also be increased do to injury to the medial collateral ligament of the elbow-typically seen in pitchers on there throwing elbow. which I could also imagine being injured from vaulting.

If this can be caused by an overuse injury that stretches the medial collateral ligament, then my earlier point about improper pulling exercises is accurate, and it means that we have to pay careful attention to how our athletes perform their lifts and drills.

This tread might contribute to the discussion about what constitutes a free takeoff and whether it can be done while taking off under. I watched Bubka jump in L.A. when he nearly broke the world record. (It was the fist time I had been beaten by over a foot since I was in Junior High.) I watched him catch his step after every jump and he was six inches to a foot under on all of them. Since he nearly made 19'9" from a short run, I would say his takeoff was pretty good on that day.