mid marks

[stavhoppare]

In 1967, in Sweden, I was introduced to the 6 step check mark used by Hans Lagerqvist and Kjell Isakson. I used it from then on and agree that the 6 step mark is better for faster, stronger vaulters. Younger and slower vaulters could use the 4 step check as they are just not going fast enough to justify the 6 step check.

Kjell and Hasse (Hans) came to train with us at UCLA several times over the next few years...I know that is where and when Tom Tellez started using it!

[dj]

good morning

thanks stavhoppare..

i knew i didn't "invent' the check mark.....

kris....your 4 looks better/cleaner than mine but there's a few things with being "off" at six that are magnified with being "on or off" at 4..

a couple of those are real critical and i will try and address those on PVP..

one of those is the "hip position" or tilt of the hips necessary for all "jumps" including the pole vault.

in the 60's/70's there were several outstanding biomechanic/physic studies done in russia on long jumpers, i'm quite sure dan pfaff had access to those as did i..

long jumpers would "steer" between 4 and 6 steps out to not only get "on" at the board but also to "shift' the hips into a correct "jump" (transfer of force) position.

in 1967 jerry proctor, a world class long jumper, showed me how to best use this information ... his reasoning, as is mine, was if you were "on" before the "natural" steering point you would not have to "steer' and lose speed and potential distance on your jump. so he had a 6 step point on the runway that he marked with his shoe bag to let him know if he was "on".. he actually could "see" the mark from his peripheral vision and "feel' if he was "on' and attack the board, but i watched it for him when we had meets together..

i told him then, the reason he out jumped me was he was smarter!!!

anyway this is doubly important in the pole vault ... because, one, any "steering" you have to do will effect speed and, two, will be effected by the pole carry.. and speed is a grip and pole size issue.

bubba had one of the only pole vaulters i have ever seen that could be off just before 6 and adjust. when she corrected the beginning of her run she was even faster and more consistent ... it's to late to try and adjust at four ... and if you don't use the 6 MID you probably want know you were "off" in the first place!

when you run incorrectly early on the runway, 90% of the time you adjust you pole carry to match your run because of "balance"... then it's a "catch 22" ... you have to run incorrectly to match the pole balance... LoJo was caught in that dilemma...

as pertov says, the plant starts with the first step!!! if you understand what i just said you will understand why he makes that statement....

you cannot plant correctly if you have not "balanced" the pole properly.. you cannot takeoff properly unless you have positioned the hips properly..

the 6 MID gives you the knowledge to make an "informed" correction if a correction is needed at all...

i really wish everyone would give me the reasons for using a 4 step "MID"??? then we can dicuss them pro and con... i don't want that info just to "shoot" someone down but to promote better coaching and better jumping..........

later

dj

[stavhoppare]

I posted this once about a year ago. I appologize that it is lengthy but it is complete.

When training and competing with Kjell and Hasse, I remember that whoever was vaulting, the other was watching the 6 step "coaches check mark". If the vaulter missed the mark by more than 2 inches, the observer (coach) yelled "STOP". This was done in practice AND competition.

So that being said, I hope you can get through this information.

THE APPROACH IN THE POLE VAULT, LONG JUMP, TRIPLE JUMP

THE TWO HORIZONTAL JUMPING EVENTS AND THE POLE VAULT SHARE MUCH IN APPROACH MECHANICS. THE APPROACH ALLOWS THE ATHLETE TO DEVELOP SPEED, TEMPO AND PROPER BODY POSITION TO ACHIEVE AN EFFICIENT TAKE OFF. AT ALL TIMES, THE ATHLETE MUST STRIVE TO BE A SPRINTER, USING PROPER SPRINT MECHANICS.

THERE ARE SEVERAL CONCEPTS REGARDING THE APPROACH THAT NEED TO BE CONSIDERED.

STEERING
FOR YOUNG ATHLETES OR THOSE JUST LEARNING THE EVENT, A SHORT APPROACH (15-20 M) IS RECOMMENDED. THE CONCEPT OF STEERING OR GETTING A FEEL FOR THE DISTANCE (SPATIAL AWARENESS) ALLOWS THE ATHLETE TO MAKE SUBTLE CHANGES IN THE STRIDE PATTERNS AS MIGHT BE NEEDED LATER ON IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE APPROACH. AT THIS STAGE, THERE IS NO REAL NEED TO RUN A PREDETERMINED NUMBER OF STEPS. IF THE ATHLETE SEEMS TO STRIDE OUT OR SHORTEN (CHOP) TO ACHIEVE THE PROPER TAKE OFF, THE COACH MAY SUGGEST MOVING THE STARTING POINT OF THE APPROACH FORWARD OR BACKWARD.

AS THE ATHLETE DEVELOPS A CONSISTENT STRIDE PATTERN AND EFFICIENT SPRINT MECHANICS, A SPECIFIC NUMBER OF STEPS CAN BE SET FOR A MORE PRECISE APPROACH.

SPEED
ONE CONCEPT TO BE UNDERSTOOD IS THE FASTER ATHLETE WILL NEED MORE DISTANCE (LONGER APPROACH) TO REACH TOP SPEED WHILE THE SLOWER JUMPER SHOULD USE A SHORTER APPROACH. A SLOW JUMPER MAY BE ABLE TO DEVELOP TOP SPEED IN JUST A FEW STRIDES WHILE TOP SPRINTERS REACH MAXIMUM VELOCITY FROM 40 M. TO 60 M. FROM THE START. AS MOST YOUNG, DEVELOPING JUMPERS DO NOT POSSESS GREAT SPEED, IT IS RECOMMENDED THAT THEY USE A SHORTER APPROACH UNTIL THEY DEVELOP BETTER STRENGTH, FLEXIBILITY AND SPRINT MECHANICS.

THE ATHLETE SHOULD STRIVE TO ATTAIN MAXIMUM SPEED (FOR THE APPROACH BEING USED) THROUGH THE TAKE OFF. WE HAVE OFTEN HEARD THE TERM “MAXIMUM CONTROLED SPEEDâ€Â

[dj]

good stuff stavhoppare...

here is some dialogue by email between lonestarpv and i.. i think it is a great addition to what we are trying to accomplish on the approach... which is what i think ladyvolspvcoach was leading to with his post...

From Lonestarpv

Thanks. I had a heckuva time working up those numbers. First I converted everything to metric. Did all the math in metric, then converted it back. The hard part was rounding off those long decimals. I got it a clean as I could though.

I did all that to make stride ropes and even got to the point where I would set cones up for each "left" or even every step along the runway, with a towel across it just in front of the takeoff point, and make my kids run those cones with and without a pole, and takeoff, then actually vault like that. It promoted a lot of consistency, but with more than one vaulter, it just wasn't practical.

Definitely understand and agree with everything you mentioned about steering. I don't want my vaulters to have to steer. I teach and reinforce that hip tilt, posture, and pole carry all the time - unfortunately I have a lot of "slumpers," who won't stay upright unless I stay on them constantly. Balance and posture, balance and posture, pole carry, tempo into the box are things I sound like a broken record repeating.

I know EB was using the 4 step mids. What was his rationale? Can't speak for Dan Pfaff, other than the same thing I'd heard from Brian Elmore and Shawn Devereaux (achtungpv) about how he felt it revealed errors later in the run.

The reason I use 4 step mids for 8 and 10 step runs is that I want to see where they hit after they've come out of the back and reached a somewhat "average" stride length. I don't know how many steps it takes to reach "average" as opposed to increasing in length, but on those short approaches I was getting more consistent takeoffs when they hit on at 4 than at 6.

Kris




From dj

hey

may original chart was in metric ... and then I converter.. the times were also feet per second .... then peter mcginnis and i converted the feet per second to meters per second and they matched the numbers peter was getting for the last 5m and 10m..

earl felt with the girls and short runs he liked it better... i disagree because the hips need to be positioned earlier than 4... i use a 6 "MID" even for a 6 step approach !!!... the physics of stride length and frequency mandates it..

he has his vaulters jump from short runs.. even in meets.. in my opinion that limits potential...

if a vaulter can "move" a 12-3 grip from 3 lefts (6 steps) they should use a 41 start mark...(or closer) to make the hip position and rhythm correct.. if they are starting farther out they are stretching which prohibits the correct hip position....

later

dj




From lonestar

I tried using the 6 mid as a starting point for a 6 step approach, and it was too far OUT for me! That's why I used 2 and 4 step mids, matching your stride lengths from those marks inwards.

I think the hips can be positioned from the first few steps of the run. When I spent time with Petrov, he continually emphasized "hips forward" with everyone he was coaching. If you look at Bubka's "start" of his run, he has a short rockback step, and rolls over the left toe keeping his posture upright, chest up, hips up, knees up, toes up, and hips forward throughout the run. Isinbayeva does too. I see too many vaulters race out of the back, hunching over with their butts sticking out behind them bent from the waist and try to recover during the run.

I don't have a problem with short runs in training. I see it as progressive. We start with 2 steps/1 left early in the fall, and move back a stride every few weeks. This week we just moved to 10 steps/5 lefts. We should be at 14 steps for Reno. We'll be 16 steps by the end of indoors, then we'll recycle for outdoors. I think you have to be careful about keeping those shot runs "tight" though and not allowing reaching/overstriding.



From dj…

Agree…agree…agree.. good stuff…

[ladyvolspvcoach]

I absolutely agree that IS GOOD Stuff!

[dj]

hey

you are dead on kris ... the hip position has always been one of my big concerns with using 4 from a long run..

i have no problem with what and how you explained all of it...

awesome.......... i wish everyone grasp the run the way you have and i think the info from petrov on posture and paralleling it with the run rhythm is exactly what bemiller and mack have attempted to do.....

good stuff

dj

[dj]

Question???

Do we all use a 4 or a 6 step "coaches mark"??

If we/you do... what criteria do you use to determine that mark???

thanks

dj

[rainbowgirl28]

Question???

Do we all use a 4 or a 6 step "coaches mark"??

If we/you do... what criteria do you use to determine that mark???

thanks

dj

I use a 4 step mark. First, because that is what I am most familiar and comfortable with, but also because most of my athletes are high schoolers or beginners and not on long enough runs to need a 6 step mid.