Push Plant technique

[VFG]

thanks becca...yeah i'm sure he's done the analysis at Easy-B's but I would just like to see some of the data

[tony]

The who trains at Tiger Bar Sports works with dan pfaff on his speed. He work with the two speed traps that are at the center and has keep track of the hht vs. convetional and he is definitively faster. Tye will be conducting camp to teach this technique. He has help numerous vaulter to a new PR with this process.

[achtungpv]

All speed tests should be done on athletes that are solely (to this point) pole carriers to get valid results. Someone that already pushes exclusively or a large percentage of the time will most likely have poor or declining carry technique. This would lead to skewed results.

I wonder if the increase in speed is worth the energy lost due to poorer takeoff technique. I don't think I've seen a pusher have a consistent free and active takeoff due to the precise timing required to grab the pole. Many have a low plant and inadvertently pull themselves towards the pole.

Granted, Tye is good at it but he did jump 5.93 carrying versus 5.70 pushing. At that level, 23cm is a HUGE difference in height. It'd be comparable to a high school boy jumping 17' carrying and only 15'6" pushing. 5.70 just appears very impressive since 99.9% of us will never jump that high but for Tye, at that point in his career, it was a pretty pedestrian clearance.

[tony]

This sound like the same rhetoric that came with the flop in the high jump. The first line of defense was that it was unique to an individual. Then came the argument that the plant foot would not allow someone to take advantage of the physics created by the technique. It took someone to perfect the process to open the eyes of the nay sayers

Your argument also reminds me of those who thought the world was flat. Rather then encourage the pursuit of a new understanding that leads to a new world.

[rainbowgirl28]

All speed tests should be done on athletes that are solely (to this point) pole carriers to get valid results. Someone that already pushes exclusively or a large percentage of the time will most likely have poor or declining carry technique. This would lead to skewed results.

I don't disagree, but I don't necessarily think that would hold up for Tye since he has switched back and forth so much.

I wonder if the increase in speed is worth the energy lost due to poorer takeoff technique. I don't think I've seen a pusher have a consistent free and active takeoff due to the precise timing required to grab the pole. Many have a low plant and inadvertently pull themselves towards the pole.

I haven't noticed that so much. If anything my kids tend to have a higher plant when they push the pole. What I do notice is that the takeoffs tend to be flatter.

The perception seems to be that it is difficult for people to learn when to grab the pole with their bottom hand. I started most of my beginners with pushing the pole last year, and I just told them to start lifting the pole with their top hand on their penultimate step, and to grab the pole as they were lifting it. I very rarely had anyone struggle with this.

It might be harder for someone to do this who was trying to convert, especially if they perceived that this would be difficult. When I first started playing around with pushing the pole, I was pleasantly surprised to find that part came easy to me. I think Lane's biggest fear as a coach was that he would have to figure out how to get me to grab it properly, but it was never a problem for me.

Oh yeah and most of my kids didn't have a problem grabbing with a natural hand spread either. If it is a problem, I find that a little bit of colored tape at the desired spot can be helpful, but I rarely needed to do this.

[altius]

"He has help numerous vaulter to a new PR with this process."

I would appreciate some examples of athletes he has helped to improve their pb using this method - and I would prefer not to learn about folk who have improved from 8' to 9'.

I would also ask, if it this method is so simple, why does anyone need to run a camp to teach it?

[rainbowgirl28]

I asked Tye how his speed compared between the two techniques:

Hey Becca,

You know me Becca, I'm an experiment junkie.
Actually, I've compared the slide to the traditional
pole carry a number of times using varying measurement
systems. At the Olympic Training Center we did a
series of experiments with high speed cameras and
infrared beams. At Earl's we did time trials through
his time trap. And long, long ago (1993) I did some
time trials through a laser set up at University of
Minnesota. All of the experiments conclusively
supported that running with one free arm and the pole
tip sliding on the ground in front of you (slide
technique) is superior in terms of max velocity
compared to running while carrying the pole in the
traditional method. For example, the data Tod Henson
and I collected at the OTC was series of max velocity
measurments over 3 separate sessions spanning 3 weeks.
We compared running without a pole (fly), carrying the
pole in the traditional way, and the pole slide
technique over a 15 meter distance and running 3
trials in each category in the following order: 1 free
run, 1 pole carry, 1 pole slide, 1 free run, 1 pole
carry, 1 pole slide, 1 free run, 1 pole carry, 1 pole
slide. The numbers were very consistent. When we
average the numbers in each individual category it
comes out like this: Running without a pole 1.51
seconds (9.93m/s). Carrying the pole: 1.61 seconds
(9.26m/s). Sliding the pole: 1.54 seconds (9.74m/s).
Get the picture? Keep in mind that this is all out
running with the pole in a controlled environment.
Planting into a box can obviously alter these numbers
and there inlies the most interesting debate in my
mind, as the data for max velocity is overwhelmingly
conclusive.

Hopefully this answers your question. I would like to
do an experiment with a larger body of participants
ranging in age and ability level. But the reality is
that I don't have the time or energy right now to
carry out such an experiment. Maybe someone can
convince Peter McGuinness to take a look at it?

Take care Becca,
Tye

[dougb]

That is pretty difinative!

I'm going to have my vaulters start the season pushing. If it works then we will stick with it. If your setting records, the college coaches will still be lineing up.

Also, you might suggest to Tye that he add some weight to the plug end of the pole to get it to drop into the box. A pound or so shouldn't affect his speed.

[rainbowgirl28]

I'm going to have my vaulters start the season pushing. If it works then we will stick with it. If your setting records, the college coaches will still be lineing up.

Britni jumped 13-1.50 using this technique but it was a major issue for all the colleges that recruited her (and I am sure some did not because they didn't want to deal with it).

My opinion is that the vast majority of vaulters never vault in college, so this reason alone is not enough to avoid the technique. I still think kids should learn how to carry the pole as well, time will sort these things out.

You never know when you will end up at some school with a bad runway, it is always a good idea to teach both techniques.

[dougb]

Your right of course. But, a tenth of a sec. in 15 meters is more than a half a sec in 100 meters. How many sprinters would thumb their noses at that.

There are two limiting factors in the pole vault. .....Ok maby more, but speed is definetely one of them.

As far as poor runways go, Ours is definetly at the bottom of the List. It will take some improvement just to be able to push there. When I was vaulting I only got on a rubber runway a couple of times. Mostly dirt.

I expect that some of the vaulters won't want to try and that is OK. Vaulting should first be fun and I try to keep it that way.

[SKOT]

From the letter Becca posted, it sounds like Harvey tested the "pole carry" without dropping the pole. Dropping the pole can make and athlete accelerate into the plant. The fastest you can run with a pole is your hands is when you DROP the pole. It would be interesting to see those numbers again if he had been using the Petrov carry/drop.

[BritDawg]

I wonder if the increase in speed is worth the energy lost due to poorer takeoff technique. I don't think I've seen a pusher have a consistent free and active takeoff due to the precise timing required to grab the pole. Many have a low plant and inadvertently pull themselves towards the pole.

???????

Britni jumped 13-1.50 using this technique but it was a major issue for all the colleges that recruited her (and I am sure some did not because they didn't want to deal with it).

let's not make assumptions.............