pole impacts

[ladyvolspvcoach]

Here goes! after many long and not always conclusive discussions it is clear that this topic needs to be posted and see what comes of it. In the same spirit that Tim McMichaels has suggested that the facilities and equipment can have a dramatic impact on the event. The one piece of equipment that I have not seen seriously discussed on this board is the pole. Understanding the impact of various sail patterns and the effects that they have on the behaviour of the pole is certainly an important issue. For example, I have seen some poles bend uniformally from end to end, and I've seen others bend more in one location than an other. Each of these conditions has a significant impact on the angle of and movement of the cord of the pole while bent. Obviously, if the movement of the cord is impacted by symetrical or by an asymetrical bend the it follows that the behavior of the vaulter is also impacted by the way the cord moves. My belief is that at least some of the mechanics of the various methods of vaulting have to be a result of the athlete reacting to these different types of bend. For example a dropped lead leg might really be the athlete reacting to some asymetrical bend behavior of the pole and the athlete is trying to "catch up" to the cord. There have been some wonderful discussions of models and mechanics from some truely knowledgable members of the vaulting community, but never in any of these discussions has the mechanics of or behavior of the pole itself been discussed and the impact this may have on various "models". I know that after hours of Dartfish studies I have seen some behaviors especially among some of our elite vaulters that seem to be more a reaction to the pole behavior than trying to successfully accomplish the mechanics of a model! Anyone else observe anything that made you question why some athletes just can't seem to change a certain behavior and frustrate his/her coach?? When it may actually be the athlete reacting to some thing the pole is doing. After all different manufacturers use different philosophies and techniques and various sail patterns all of which impact the behavior of the pole.....any thoughts???

[rainbowgirl28]

I feel like we have this discussion every time dj talks about poles. I know we have had it several times on the board.

I made one of dj's posts into a new thread http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12820

I am not going to lock this thread, but I would rather focus it on this part of the previous post:

Anyone else observe anything that made you question why some athletes just can't seem to change a certain behavior and frustrate his/her coach?? When it may actually be the athlete reacting to some thing the pole is doing. After all different manufacturers use different philosophies and techniques and various sail patterns all of which impact the behavior of the pole.....any thoughts???

If you just want to talk about various pole brands, try to keep it in the equipment forum.

[ladyvolspvcoach]

I really hope this does not become a discussion of brands. I'm truely concerned about the topic generically, especially as it relates to how to recognize issues with our athletes. I'm sure there is valuable information relating to vault mechanics and pole mechanics. I certainly do not want to get into a push and pull about whose poles are better than whose Thats one reason I posted it in the coaches forum. I doubt whether many of the athletes actually are informed about the structure and mechanics of pole design.....and I'm genuinely concerned..

[ec1vaulter]

I personally do not believe that a model should not be followed due to the pole. Obviously you want to meet the "cord" of the proper positioning the pole will have an impact on it if the pole bends un-uniformally. I feel it it is more a matter of speeding or slowing the vault. If ths is the case, then perhaps a different pole brand series or different flex rating would be the better solution instead of altering technique. It is also important to ensure that the pole is bending properly. If a pole is not reacting properly, then it is possibly an error in the pole construction. If it is not a flaw in the pole then find out what the difference in the previous pole with proper technique and the current pole with alterred technique and correct with different equipment. I do not feel that this happens often, but when it does occur it can, and should, be corrected promptly.

Sometimes it is also indication of a flaw in technique that was not noticed on previous poles. An example of which can be found in one of my current athletes. When moving to a new pole we discovered that he is very fast on the beginning of his swing. It was unknown on softer poles, but while transitioning to a larger pole it was discovered that he was rushing the lower end of his vault and flawed his technique in order to prolong this stage of the vault in order to correct the problem on the stiffer pole. We simply went back to basic drills and focused on this area to ensure that he was ready to use the stiffer pole in competition.

Of course the exact nature of the bend of the pole will be hard to duplicate exactly every time a pole is made, but it should not change so much that the technical model should also be altered

[dj]

hey becca

i moved this response back here, from equipment, because i don't want to talk about pole brands.. and didn't read your notes close enough before.

i would like to discuss my observations as to how poles, in my opinion can and have effected technique..

i don't think we can really have a "model" pole vault style and not include the pole as a variable. just as golf has to consider the club.

Also these current threads have overlapping discussions that are intertwined with the pole and it's bend characteristics as does most topics and questions that have been raised on this board...

bottom arm and takeoff

pole impacts

jumping with or behind the pole

alternate swing methods

bottom arm and pole bend

big bend vs smaller bend..


if we are working with physics the athlete's run and plant efficiency (speed and takeoff position) should bend and unbend the pole "naturally" and allow for a continuous swing, uninterrupted swing from the top of the pole. If the pole pattern breaks that pattern the athlete will have to adjust.. breaking the continuous chain and losing force and efficiency in the process..


Early poles like the browning skypole did not bend symmetrically with the grips they were holding.. the pacer III was a step closer ..

i took kjell isakson's picture at the takeoff, bottom arm bent, and overlaid bubka's symmetrical bending pole. on that pole kjell's bottom arm would have been much further away from the pole and not nearly as bent... the way the 6.40 model describes it..

i drew numerous drawings of earl bell with film on a drawing pad to compare his technique with the best vaulters of that era.. the pole bend and body position were a major concern.. should we "change" the knee drop or was it bio-mechanically sound at least was it having a negative effect on his vault.. the answer was no.. he set a world record..

earl bell's dropped knee was a result of the pole design, grip and flex.. and his natural reaction to keep everything moving properly to complete the vault.

recently i have observed a female vaulter.. using three different pole in her progression to a PR.. for her last 2 jumps she was on a pole that was more symmetrical.. immediately she had a "rockback and an inversion.. her coach had been telling her to invert all year long... i don't think she "suddenly" got it on those last 2 vaults! and i don't think she had not been trying for 2/3 years not to invert!

Haven't spent a lot of time analyzing Mark's vaults but if he is being taught NOT to drop his knee I'm sure he would not "refuse" to change. It has to be a variable not being looked at..

i have been fortunate to have had some first had experience and feel i should pass on what i have observed and/or tested. the vault only improves if we follow physic and analysis every variable. Every!

later

dj

[dj]

i moved this here.......

from VTechV

Im confused though, i dont think that anyone would argue that Maksim Tarasov was one of the best technical vaulters in history, and he was using pacer carbons. All of bubkas early world records were on pacer IIIs. and i believe Dean starkeys 5.91 pr at the world championships was on a pacer carbon.

would u be able to further elaborate on whether or not these vaulters line up in the trend that you have noticed? ps i only mentioned Dean because you did, while he is no doubt a great vaulter, i dont think hes really a technical model.

i mean theres no doubt that lots of people jump high and jump well on spirits, but i believe its a case of the right pole for the right jumper.

i don't remember mentioning dean?

yes bubka was on pacer III's.. and those patterns, glass, mandrel size etc.. was the same as the poles that we used for mike tully.. and the way we determine the pole patterns was not from bubka's poles it was from mike's poles and eventually every pole i could "check", black, white, yellow, from 1983 to 1988.

mike had evey pole he had ever used in his garage, including the "majic pole" that he, earl bell and dave roberts had all used to jump 18-6 or higher. dave borrowed the pole after he had broken his attempting a 18-8 world record and cleared it..

in 1981 george moore had "chatted' with me about that pole. at the time i had not seen the pole but most of what he said made sense from a design engineering stand point. i was familiar with the basic technology from the design and engineering of fishing poles...

when i saw and analyzed the pole much of what he said made sense. then i started comparing and watching every pole mike used.. even a carbon that he held 16 feet on and went out of the back of the pit on at USC.. without even being able to invert. how many people that know the vault ... would/could ever think mike tully could not swing and invert on any pole..

to shorten this for now..

first it had to do with the sail piece and giving the vaulter a symmetrical bend. next the mandrel had to be bigger so the pole could bend more with less chance of breaking.. then where the "butt" Center of Mass "crossed or went through the pole made a difference.. and it's different for tall and short vaulters.. and based on hand grip. next we determined that the length, or lengthening the short side of the sail piece slightly but keeping the same flex helps the vaulter get "picked" up quicker and not blow through...

my most recent real compassion was with two vaulters.. one on the west coast one on the east coast.. one male..one female..different coaches.. different environment.. they both had a "quirk" in their vault.. both extended their lead way out in from of there knee after take of.. on film they looked identical body position and pole position.. sometimes the stronger male vaulter could get more off the top than the female.. but not consistantly..

what was the only common factor?? the pole.. same company but they were different models.. so i thought it may not be the pole.. but when i check the patterns and with the company the patterns were the same..

i knew the female had started on different poles and checked her old film.. she didn't have the "quirk" until she changed poles..

the poles allowed the vaulter to penetrate but most of the time she could not swing very high above her grip..

i tried the poles and jump over 12' with no problem but i could feel the bend down low.. this asymmetrical bend would (maybe.. and not always) cause the vaulter to adjust and break the natural chain that most of us view the vault as..

all of the "how" and "why" i am relaying and have determined (for me) has logic and structural significance in feel and feed back from the jumpers and visual feedback in the bend action while filming..

of course the athlete can be blamed if we have no real "other" explanation but i have found athletes that want to really and truly be the best and kick "A" and take names will try and change anything they think is hindering them for succeeding.. AND athletes who reach the record heights have the mental and physical capacity to change.. unless the instrument does not function "with" physics..

more later

dj

[vaultwest]

Very Interesting topic and one that I am sure has the potential for some fireworks.

Before I put in my own humble observations I think it is important to state that since there are way too many variables in each vault to control with out a very sophisticated/expensive setup to take account of all those variables (which I have yet to see) we are all just talking about our own very limited biased opinions.

I was part of the team that developed the fx system for Gill and I am very proud of the efforts we made to develop some scientific/engineering machines to get some actual objective measurements and not just the subjective imput from all of us biased observers on how poles respond to the forces we put them through. I think we made some steps in the right direction but I am fully aware of the limits of our results. Not all of our machines preformed as we wanted them to and the costs associated with building machines to do a better job was prohibitive. So while we made some progress and learned some things much more work along these lines needs to be done before we really know what poles actually do.

That being said I think that poles do have intrinsic differences that can be positive and negative to vaulters. But from my own experiences of getting promo poles in elite vaulters hands of all levels and from watching probably around 100+ of my own vaulters jumping on basically the same series of poles over the past 15 years the following things come to mind. I have seen the same pole look slow on one athlete and very fast for another. I have seen a specific pole with low bends for one vaulter and a high bend for the next. I have cleaned up a pole and put new mylar tape on that pole and had the same vaulter go from thinking it was the worst pole in the world to the best pole he had ever jumped on. Variables, Variables, Variables.

So when you look at all of those variables and then add in all the various ways to get hoop strength, and then just with stiffness you have to consider the hoop strength inner wraps, how many body wraps, how many sail wraps, the mandrell size, different fiberglass cloths and different resin saturation and finally all the many different sail piece dimensions you have more variables than you can keep track of.

Elite athletes tend to be consistent with their ablities and technique so some variables can be better kept track of, so a certain series of poles may be found that works better or worse for that athlete I am just not sure one can extrapolate that 100% over to another vaulter.

Talking about different designed poles is fun and I enjoy discussing it with people I just hope we all realize none of us know what in the hell is really going on.

Vault On

[dj]

hey

i noticed my spell check is not working well.. sorry..

i'll have to take the time to get it right before i post next time..

hope most of the "miss prints" are understandable..

lead leg... comparison

later

dj

[dj]

good morning

i brought this over from the "fiberglass era" thread

some of it may be repetitive but should go here..

the development of poles has been just as responsible for the technique we see today (even bubka's technique. which most of the time was the "natural" way to vault) as our coaching.. even different styles of poles of today are still effecting the vault.

earl bells knee drop was partially from the pole and the relationship of the grip, stiffens and design.

bubka could perform the "model" partially because he was fast enough to grip near the top of a 5 meter pole designed by george moore.

application of force and physics is the way we can vault our best and the action/reaction of the pole has to be considered.

ron morris, fred hanson, john pennel, dave tork, casey carrigan.. so many more that i need to get out my file of who and what pole they used...etc..etc.. they were our test pilots..

their "model" was.. run as fast as you can (controlled) plant as high as you can.. keep your takeoff "at" or outside vertical.. swing as fast as you can.. while staying behind the cord of the pole... try to swing your body as high above your top grip as possible..

sorry to bring up "model" here.. but tom telez and guy kochel (to name only two americans, there were fiberglass vaulters and coaches before them) had "The Model" at least as early as 1974.. and it was no different in concept than the 6.40 bubka Model.. and this in NOT in disrespect for petrov.. he improved the model and described it in a way (Natural Vault.. relaxed extended arms, free takeoff, which is what guy kochel was saying when he said "you will feel like you have taken off to far out, 3/4" before the pole tip hits the back of the box") that should be listened to and produced the only 20' vaulter to date.

to me this sounds like "the model" one that we, USA, has been working toward for a long time.. and that pacer III's let us start to obtain because of the design..

and we have to consider that the type of pole that a vaulter learns on and the coaching points they are familiar with, may make a difference in what happens when they try a different design..

this often happened with the same pole company same series of poles.. because of the way they had to work with the glass to get a specifiic flex..

those varibles become more controlled from the 60's era all the way to bubka.. "bubka's poles" were not the end of innovation but the records had progressed in part because of the poles.. and the poles working with the "natural" way to vault..

i feel those pole designs and many/most of the parameters they used allowed the athlete to vault with physics... and we should continue with the varibles that help "physics" and work away form the ones that "make" the athlete change "natural" technique to complete a vault..

some designs have worked well... some often did not... over the years i checked the poles that worked and found design qualities that were the same on the ones that have worked since i have started checking in 1983...

i agree that a vaulter can "make" any pole bend.. low .. high.. middle

if it happens on a symmetrically designed pole, low and high bends should be from the way the athlete applied the force.. if an athlete is bending symmetrically most of the time on a symmetric pole and bends asymmetrical (high - low) on an asymmetrical pole logic should tell us it;s the pole design.. if an athlete bends asymmetrically on a symmetrical pole, which we all have seen happen.. then we must look at the technique .. specifically the run/plant/takeoff technique.. How did they apply the force as they transferred from none support to support.??...

more later

dj

[Tim McMichael]

Talking about different designed poles is fun and I enjoy discussing it with people I just hope we all realize none of us know what in the hell is really going on.

Vault On

My very best set of poles, (which I still have) has four different brands in it and was pieced together over many years of trial and error. Each pole feels the same and jumps the same and lines up with my particular jumping style. This is how elite golfers used to pick their set of clubs when the shafts and heads were made of wood. The organic nature of these materials made it impossible for clubmakers to produce an identical set. Although pole design has improved a great deal over the last couple of decades, I think there are still too many variables involved to be able to produce an identical set of poles. When we were ordering poles, we used to ask that they all be made on the same day, by the same people, out of the same run of glass. The differences in resin from one sheet of fiberglass to the next is enough to slightly alter the dynamics of poles made from each sheet.

I rarely had a set of more than five poles that did not have one that was noticeably different from the rest. Bruce Caldwell and Paul Richards once made me a set of four Maxima 4 poles that were consistent through the series, but once again, they made them all on the same day out of the same roll of fiberglass.

Joe Dial once had an outdoor season in which he was having difficulties jumping higher than 18'6". He could not seem to get past his 16.0 flex pole. This was driving him crazy because he felt like he was in good enough shape to be on at least a 15.6 and jumping over 19'. His dad suggested that the pole might be the problem. The next meet Joe Skipped the 16.0 and jumped 19'4" on his 15.2. This was on a set of poles in which all other factors seemed to be identical.

[dj]

good morning...

quote from vaultwest
So when you look at all of those variables and then add in all the various ways to get hoop strength, and then just with stiffness you have to consider the hoop strength inner wraps, how many body wraps, how many sail wraps, the mandrel size, different fiberglass cloths and different resin saturation and finally all the many different sail piece dimensions you have more variables than you can keep track of.

quote tim mcmicheal

My very best set of poles, (which I still have) has four different brands in it and was pieced together over many years of trial and error. Each pole feels the same and jumps the same and lines up with my particular jumping style.

there are a lot of variables ... but we have to assume and trust that the pole makers are keeping those variables to a minimum.. and only changing the variables that are necessary to make a pole;

1. slightly stronger than the previous pole and/or allowing a higher grip

2. To continue the same bend characteristics while making the pole stronger..

3. make the pole capable of "bending without breaking"

4. keep the pole as similar in carry weight and "feel" as the previous pole..

when i started making comparisons it was not between brands at all.. it was "patterns".. and that is how i still compare poles.

sail piece pattern, of course in relationship to the pole length and grip.... mandrel size and the length of the short side of the sail piece plus it's position in relationship to the vaulters height and grip...when i started checking the poles that had worked for tully, prior to 1983, they all had some similar characteristics. plus i compared what had been explained to me about the pole that mike, earl and dave had used successfully, that i measured in mike's garage.... billy olsons "honey" yellow pole had the same "markers" as mike's good poles as well as joe dial's good poles (although i think some of joe's poles had a higher sail piece.. and actually that was easily explained because of his height and where his center of mass "crossed" through the sail piece..

the pole that won the 1980 games fit the pattern...

in those days a pole was (basically) "stiffened up" (1)by adding length to the short side of the sail,(2) mandrel size or (3) more width on the fabric to give it more wraps ... at least those were the factors i considered..

of those, the length of the short side of the sail and it's position (everything else being equal and unchanged) created the best "start" indicator .

later

dj

[Tim McMichael]

In the set of poles that were my favorites, the length of the short side of the sail piece is very close to the same, and the middle of the short side on all of them is 82" from the tip of the pole. I have found that (given a reasonable length of the long side) if the short side fits these dimensions I can use the pole. It may not be my favorite, but it won't be something I just can't get in on. I think DJ is right that this is the first place to start when looking at the design of the pole.