Need help getting upside down :)

[AVC Coach]

"Follow through occurrs AFTER take-off, and allows you to stretch into a 'C' if you do it well."

The "C" position you're talking about is a result of finishing the take-off. The swing should start the instant that take-off is completed.

"do you mean that the vaulter continues to lead with the chest and keeps the arms above the head before starting to row the pole?"

The concept of rowing the hands is misunderstood and keeps a lot of kids from jumping high. Don't bring your hands to your hips, swing your hips to your hands.

[powerplant42]

What is your definition of take-off? Do you mean the vaulter should swing as soon as they leave the ground? No elite vaulter does that, that's insane. They all push the pole towards the bar while in a 'C' position. Just watch film of any sound vaulter in slow motion, as follow-through lasts for only a few frames.
You're right about rowing though; it makes the pole unbend prematurely.

[vault3rb0y]

Its my understanding that the take off, if done correctly, automatically puts you in the C position. If you are jumping with a lot of energy off the ground, its only natural for your takeoff/swing leg to move behind you and for your chest to push out a bit. I think hes saying THAT is when the take off is finished, because if you have built your muscle memory to hit those take off positions, you can start thinking about swinging AS SOON AS you jump off the ground, because your muscle memory forces you to hit the "C" position. and as soon as your trail leg is behind you, it should be whipped forward with no hesitation. Dont "sit in the pocket" too long.
This is actually EXACTLY what ive been working on the past few practices lol.
But yes actually if you watch elite jumpers you will see that once they are in the inverted C, they dont stay there long. As soon as they are fully extended in the "C", they are fully commited to a long and powerful swing. Check out the continuous chain posts in the advanced section to see how if you DONT do that, you end up losing a ton of important time and energy in the jump.

[powerplant42]

I think what we have here is a simple definition misunderstanding. Now, my definition of take-off is an action more than a phase...what I mean is that to me it's the ACT of jumping, not any period of time. But, I'm sure, to many coaches, my follow-through is their take-off completion. If you know your stuff, you know that good vaulters keep their hands high after they leave the ground. That's basically what I mean by 'follow-through'. You can't begin to swing as soon as you jump, you do have to wait (about 3/10 of a second...). I think that telling a new vaulter to swing as soon as they jump isn't a good idea, since they will most likely begin to lean back when they jump. That's what I used to do, and I fixed it with the concept of follow-through.

[AVC Coach]

Yes. It is a misunderstanding of definitions, but you're also misunderstanding what is actually happening when "good" vaulters jump. They are holding high enough to give the illusion that they are pushing the pole, when they are actually swinging beneath their arms (that happen to be extended). If you leave the ground in a the correct position with all of your energy heading in the correct direction, there is no need to "follow through" and hang in the pocket for any length of time.

You can and should begin to swing when you finish your take-off. And.........if you teach the vault in a proper progression, you should tell them to swing as soon as they finish their take-off.

I know that you mean well powerplant42 and have obviously found a temporary solution for whatever problem you had, but trying to convince these beginners to follow in your footsteps, simply because it's working for you right now, is probably not a good idea. Give it some time and see how it works out for you a year or two or three down the road and then come back with some hard evidence that what you're doing is going to make these young guys and gals jump high.

[powerplant42]

I again must disagree on the topic of follow-through... It is based upon chain theory, the heart of the Petrov model.

http://www.coacheseducation.com/polevault/ed_jacoby_apr_01.htm
look at concept #8.

http://www.pvei.com/fusion/readarticle.php?article_id=22
'switch point' occurs with a follow-through phase...

http://www.neovault.com/article_launder1.asp
5th paragraph...(Have you read BTB or seen the DVD?)

If you're right about vaulters swinging right away, then how can you explain how every elite vaulter stays tall after take-off?

[vault3rb0y]

If you're right about vaulters swinging right away, then how can you explain how every elite vaulter stays tall after take-off?

Im pretty sure he is saying that you swing right after a finished take off, or follow through, whatever you want to call the phase when your body is fully expanded and extended and in the farthest C position possible. You want to get to this position fast and get out of it even faster with a strong swing.... is what i think he is saying.

According to the continuous chain model you want absolutely no time in the jump when you are doing nothing to add energy. In order to do this, you must finish the take off and be ready to swing from a strong C position as soon as possible. In no way does it involve simply being tall and having no active energy transfer.

[powerplant42]

It is an active phase. The vaulter moves the pole up and out, by, I guess, whatever you want to call it, 'finishing the take-off'. But in no way is it a passive phase.

[AVC Coach]

Moving the pole out is not an advantageous active phase. It means that the pole is going somewhere and you're not going with it.

I've read your examples and I think you are misinterpreting what they wrote and what is actually occuring when an elite jumper vaults. You can keep trying this energy killer, but I think you'll find the end result isn't what you had hoped for. Good luck.

[master]

If you're right about vaulters swinging right away, then how can you explain how every elite vaulter stays tall after take-off?

What do you mean when you say "... vaulter stays tall.."? When the swing is done properly (after completing the take off) the vaulter will be in a fully extended (their body as long and stretched out as it possibly can be) through to the position where their body lines up with the chord of the pole. This should occur when the chord of the pole is at 45 degrees off the horizontal. The swing does not have the vaulter stop "being tall".

- master

[powerplant42]

Exactly! But nobody swings as soon as they leave the ground, they pre-stretch their body into a 'C'. And what's happening to the pole at this point in time? It is moving toward the bar and beginning to bend! Again, all I'm saying is that one needs to take off with hands high, and push the pole with their JUMP. Maybe I didn't make that clear. It's a very short, but very important phase that gets the pole moving towards the bar. Do you disagree that this is what makes the pole rotate? Look at Hartwig here, pause at exactly 4 seconds, where he hasn't begun to swing yet, but is still traveling behind the chord of the pole.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YWYNHPZ2dng&mode=related&search=

[apsully]

I think your last post finally got your point through a bit more clearly.I definitely understand what you're saying but I think it's been misunderstood until what you just said.

As for my take on it, I think your wording makes this a bit confusing. I don't think there is a single vaulter out there who physically thinks about actually PUSHING the pole up and forward at take off. If you are doing everything right, you should have your arms fully extended and be in the C position with your chest leading....if all that's happening, your body, as a whole, will naturally be moving the pole forward. Even if you're not actively thinking about pushing the pole up and forward, theres no way in hell that this part of the vault can ever be passive (assuming you're holding the c with you're chest leading).