when buying a used pole...

[Bruce Caldwell]

The plastic tube concept is nice if you are taking only one or two poles - If you have four or five - or in my case two bags - twenty poles - it get unwieldie - ok all the poles are not for me - but for others at the meet - look for pole abuse -

Yes those plastic tubes can get very heavy after one or two in your group of poles.
There has to be another way we are looking but have not discovered it yet.

[Bruce Caldwell]

Quote:by essx
6. Measure the pole to make sure it has not been cut down.

reply by pvjunkie
Awsome advice..........cutting a pole down changes EVERYTHING and you will have no idea what your getting

Yes this is crucial and you are correct it does things to the poles you cannot imagine

[Decamouse]

You two sure make me smile some mornings - some realy good info comes out - some strong opinions - neither lacks for confidence - some comments are not always technically correct from the pure engineering aspect but are understood. And I thought working on stuff that made you glow in the dark was interesting -

[PVJunkie]

Isnt it nice that we can keep Jeff entertained. I think we can agree to disagree on some of these points. I go back to the fact that you CANNOT break a pole if you do not bend it no matter how much you weigh. I vault on my sons 10' 80 and dont break it because I do not bend it. Nor does straight poling "stress" the pole, again you have to bend it to do that. In the testing that we have done (on undamaged poles) if you overbend a pole (and do not cause damage in doing so) nothing about the poles integrity has changed, it is still as sound as it was before being overbent. It can still be tested and will maintain its orig flex. Again this is a pole that has no bangs bruises or nicks. So if you do not overbend the pole (the major problem in the US today with the grip high attitiude) you CAN safely vault on a pole rated under your wt (you cannont do so at the HS level). Why.................well it all comes back to the way that the wt rating is applied. Flex #'s (the current rating system) are attained and dont care about what the pole is made of (I can flex a steel pole but it wont mean anything). The problem arises when the wt rating is aligned with a range of flex #'s. This is based on the average energy input into the system (average male with average speed with average tech etc.). So can we all agree that the average HS male can produce more energy (mass x speed squared) than a girl or masters vaulter. So if the wt ratings are based on the average energy and there is a large portion of the end user who cannot reach the average then they are using less energy and the pole will be much "stiffer" to them. I could go into a whole essay on why a NEW flex chart (wt system) should be developed for girls ONLY poles but I dont see that ever happening, instead we modify the pole characteristics to better suit a lower energy vaulter (Skypole/Mystic). So what do the masters guys/gals do. Well they vault on poles below their wt (near their energy input ability). Just my ramblings, but our current system based on "averages" hes room for improvement. We all want everyone to be safe and for no pole to ever break BUT it is a challenging task under the current system. I have 2 hats I wear................1 - if you are a youth competitior or HS vaulter you MUST use a pole rated at or above your wt. and CANNOT grip above the max grip band!! 2 - your any other vaulter, what pole do you need to be safe and successful.

NEVER OVERGRIP, TRAIN WITH THE STANDS BURIED, HAVE FUN AND BE SAFE.

The athlete has more to do with "can you grip above the band" than the sail. If I have my thumb in the end of a pole and am jumping over the bend am I safe...........YES..........do I need a longer pole........YES. If I cap a pole and time up to it (and am not overbending it) am I safe...........YES..............COULD I go to a longer pole................maybe...........but if I cant time up to the larger sail with the same grip will I jump higher, NO.

I wish I had more time to expound on all the thoughts racing through my head about this topic.

[Oldcoach]

Damn, I could almost feel Bryan hyperventilating while reading this. Jeff, maybe you should check on him to see if he is still conscience. One thing to offer, I think he meant " speed squared times mass" as the input energy. Let him curse me this time instead of you. Good rant Bryan I like your thinking.

[Decamouse]

Doesn't a power function take precedence over multiplication? If so then technically the answer would be the same - although it may read easier with speed squared times mass!

[Bruce Caldwell]

I agree that a male vaulter has the potential to produce more energy, speed, etc than a woman. However, make note that most of the women out there jumping 12' or higher are using poles 10 to 15 lbs or more over their weight. SO I would say that the lower center of gravity they have over men has some benefits we tend to overlook.
Because most of the guys tend to try using poles at or slightly over their weight .

[Bruce Caldwell]

Bryan feel free to correct me if I am reading what you said incorrectly but this is how it sounded to me! :D
[quote]When you say the following:
“So if you do not over bend the pole (the major problem in the US today with the grip high attitude) you CAN safely vault on a pole rated under your wt (you cannot do so at the HS level).â€Â

[vaultin chris]

sorry ESSX, but im gonna side with Bryan, because it is safer to grip down on a pole that would otherwise overbend--to besafe.

if a vaulter holds back, takes less of an approach, does not leap at the take-off, or give it their all, they can use a pole rated lower than their weight?

are you saying that if a vaulter does all the opposite that he is ready for the next pole. I THINK NOT. why? because the vault has to many factors and sometimes its better to try to new appoaches to try to master as many as many of these factor as possible. not to mention that a vaulter could do all the forementioned things and still not be ready to move his grip up.

[Bruce Caldwell]

="vaultin chris"]sorry ESSX, but im gonna side with Bryan, because it is safer to grip down on a pole that would otherwise overbend--to besafe.

You are correct it is better to lower the grip than overbend the pole.
BUt lower the grip within the grip area, anything lower is really like jumping with a training pole as you grip under the sail piece top.

Yes I know some have gotten by with short runs, and lower grips but what I am trying to explain is this is not optimum vaulting. YEs it can be fun, it can work if varibles are adjusted, but I cannot advocate the use of a pole rated below your weight for liability reasons. Those who work for pole sellers must be careful what they say and what they suggest.
Coaches too can be held liable for suggesting that an athlete use a pole rated under their weight and the athlete gets injured.

[vaultin chris]

i understand u have to be the father/authority figure as a pole manufacuter. but i think its wrong for u to discourage things that are a part of the vault lifestyle. Unless u r given away poles for free i think that sometimes it is necessary to vault with what u have. sometimes that thing is a foot short is 10 lbs over and sometimes it is 10 under and foot long. WHAT DO U DO?

[Bruce Caldwell]

Alternative to an under weight pole
OR
How I gave poles away for almost free for years
well cheaper poles anyway

When I coached vaulters back in the old days 1970 to 1977 I recommended that my vaulters use a poles rated under their weight to do short pole runs, It took less effort and the pole were easy to jump on, you could get more jumps in practice.
BUT what happened as a coach I had no control of the athlete moving the hand up a bit, getting more confident and moving down the runway a bit faster, moving the run back each time till they over stressed the pole rated under their weight.

After losing numerous expensive poles, and some shaken vaulters, I found the training pole was the answer, a thick wall lower modulus pole that took a beating and kept on bending. We sold them when I was a senior in High school in 1969 till 1996 (WOW 27 years)as a short run alternative. Other manufacturers made trainers but never advocated a short run approach and many used my trainer pole the one that was orange and gray with foam in the middle and the black heavy ones, thick walled with a full run. This caused the pole to over bend and propelled the athletes out the back of the pit. With vaulting pits so short in the back 12’-14’ many vaulters got seriously injured.
As a result when the NFHS suggested the trainer be banned, I did not fight the move and let the pole that I made so much money on go away.

I still say if it was used properly the pole would still be very popular, but there was no way for me to be at the end of the runway making sure everyone would use a short run or the pole properly!!!

ANd neither can coaches today so it is best to use the poles as recommended by the manufactuer to insure proper and safe vaulting for your athletes regardless of myths or short cuts.

FREE poles would be SWEET but if you really knew what went into making a pole the price on them today is a bargain.