High School Safety – Weight vs Pole Ratings

[Bruce Caldwell]

The original Thread was started by Tom Wilson
http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/vie ... highlight=
Tom Wilson
Who is against the rule for pole ratings. I want to thank him for writing me and his participation in this exercise to get him higher on a properly weighted pole. While Tom is 50 he is still an avid jumper in shape and any High Schooler can relate to what happens in this excersise!
Bruce of ESSX is for the NFHS rule claiming a shorter pole at the proper rating should of been used instead of longer softer poles as a substitute for lack of the proper pole.

Bruce claims Selecting longer poles than the ability of the jumper is more about poor technique than just using a properly weighted pole. And that the rule can be met with the proper information and the use of a shorter pole that is weighted at the vaulters weight.

TOM says Please do keep in mind my thoughts behind a rule change have not changed. Here we are buying a shorter proper weight pole. That is different than my post basis since the rule change concept is based upon not having the shorter proper pole in inventory and thus trying to get by with some longer pole and holding low. This new pole will hopefully show a shorter proper weight pole is more effective than a longer softer pole that is held low in an attempt to stiffen it. Am I right that is what your interest is?

TOm and I wrote each other asking question and getting more info we would like to share. I have his permision to share his private emails on pV Power.

BRUCE EMAIL TO TOM
hello Tom
Let us narrow down the variables here!
1. What is the flex and brand of the 14-165?

2. how long is your approach and grip when jumping 12' with a 14-165-170 holding
a grip of;
12'9"
13'
13'3"
13'6"

3. and a run that is;
Full run 9-10 lefts/rights
Med run 7-8 lefts/rights
Short run 5-6 lefts/rights
MOREINFO
Finite element analysis tells us that poles over 178lbs are subject to a flex number that has less increments than currently used by the two main manufactures'.
Other words as the cm's or inches' of a flex measurement get tighter the unit of measurement must be more accurate and precise. What we got was a 173 test that was the same as their 170 and then our 180 that was the same stiffness as the competition's 175 test poles and our 185 was equal to their 180 and our 190 was as stiff as their 185.
When we made the poles exactly like this and used the more accurate number , the problem was worse as when the customer ordered our 180 they were moving from their their 175 on to our 180 that was the same stiffness. We had to use their flex chart to keep things safe even though we knew it was wrong.
When selecting you a pole I will use the current method as we use in house daily not the corrected method.
I see now why you have had so much success using poles under your weight and how it seems the best for you. I still concur that you will have the ability to jump higher on a shorter pole so lets see if it works for you.

TOM to BRUCE Email
Tom currently uses;
what pole are you on now?
A variety, 14-165, 14-170, at times 14-175, mostly the 165 and 170, although bottom 12" just broke off the 170 when letting high schoolers use. Use pole protectors but it just gave way, not a catastrophic break, more of a cave in. I also have a 12' 2" play pole that was a 14-150 w/ top 2 feet broken off. All of the above are Pacers.
what do you weigh?
I'll jump at 175 to 183 range, right now 188 but haven't worked out much while coaching high school season and added a few pounds.
what do you vault?
12-0 on above poles, 11-4 on the 12 foot pole, standards in 24 to 30" range except on 175 when they are a little closer, maybe 20". With play pole standards often beyond 30.
What do you grip?
Varies, 12-6 to 13-6 on the 14 foot poles, about 11-4 to 11-6 on the 12-2 poleThe 14-165 is a Pacer. It has a 17.9 flex. Clears 12-0 with 12-9 grip running eight lefts from 94'. Run length stays 94' for the other 14' poles and grips. Generally move grip up as move onto heavier weight rated pole.

BRUCE TO TOM EMAIL
Let me give you the info I have so far.
I went to the office today Sunday and grabbed a 13-176 lbs pole and flexed it on the 14' scale to show you why the 14-165 Flex 17.9 is too soft for you and the 14-170 that broke is too soft also.
The results of a 13-176lbs 400/80 normal flex 14.4 was a flex of 19.3 on a 14' scale. So you can see that a 13-176 is lighter than a 14-165 or at least stiffer where you were holding
I flexed a 13'7-178 and got a flex of 17.9 on a 14' scale.
So A 14-165 is equal to the relative stiffness of a 13' 7'-178 & a 13-185 will be equal also to a 14-165. SO if you had a 13'7-178 it would be safer and stiffer and would be closer to the way a pole should bend for you properly.

So I am going to build you a 13-187 test pole around a 13.0 flex on the 13' scale which will be a 17.2-4 on a 14' scale. This pole will be stiffer by 2.2 lbs than the 14-165 you are using
Then we can see how it works for you.

The pole will be made on Thursday and shipped for TOM to try. The results and comments will be from TOM Wilson

[vault3rb0y]

Extremely interesting post, i look forward to the results!

[Rhino]

I can't wait 'till he gets it. I'm going to have to take a few vaults on that pole myself!

[Bruce Caldwell]

We made a 400/85x 13'1"-187.0 Tom weighs 188 (Need to lose one lb or you are not legal grin)
We also while making the pole ended up with a 400/87 13'1"-191.4
So we are going to send it too for his help on this project.

For referance for the study:
1. 400/85x =13'1"-187 lbs. (light)is a 13.7 flex on the 13' scale but on the 14' scale it is a 18.7 which is equal to a 430/74 14- 162.8
2. 400/87= 13'1"-191.4 lbs. (stiff) is a 12.5 flex on the 13' scale but on a 14' scale it is a 17.1 which is equal to a 430/77 14-169.4

Yes this does imply that one could hold down 1 foot and the relative stiffness would be the same, however due to the inner construction of the pole design of a vaulting pole one would get better return of energy and better technique using the poles rated at your ability.
Lets see how Tom does on the poles!
Shipping Friday 5/03/07 TOM
PS I have never met Tom or written to him prior to this project.

Bruce Caldwell
ESSX Maker

182

[vault3rb0y]

I hope no outside variables come into play.... like he breaks both poles taking off way outside the first time he jumps on them!! lol just kidding. This will be interesting, i sincerely wish i could participate in this experiment! :p

[Tom Wilson]

Wow! Thank you Bruce. I'll do my best to document differences. Probably will do this with someone filming and will send you a CD as well as posting info. I am looking forward to this.

[Bruce Caldwell]

For those waiting for the results on this test

Tom who works for an engineering firm has been busy and the weather has not been very good at his training site. He will in the next 2-4 weeks test the poles. He did go up one day on the lightest one, but cannot give us details as to the results just yet.
Those not familar with the test please read previous posts
Bruce ESSX

[Tom Wilson]

I have had a few chances to jump on the new poles. First off thanks again to Bruce for the chance to try out these poles. He gave me a deal on the first pole and threw in the second for free! Very nice of Bruce to do that.

Rec'd the poles on a Thursday when the first tropical depression (an early one) sat right off our coast. Weather said 25 mph gusting headwinds so I was alone at practice but decided to try out the lighter pole, the 13-187. Checked my weight that day and was 183 after jumping so yes Bruce I was safely under the weight. Being alone on new poles I was a little cautious and left my cell phone on the pit for safe calling. My best on the 14' 165 to 175 lb poles I have been using has been 12'. Third jump on new pole cleared 11'. In truth I struggled a little that day getting used to pole in conditions but was getting good height but not deep as usual and I did not want to bring standards up for safety reasons. Overall first day on the 13 187 in relatively tough headwinds I felt very comfortable with the pole.

Next practice was Sunday two days ago and had some other vaulters around. Wind was slight tail. Ran from 93' and cleared 11' quite easily on the 187. Moved up to 12 and although I did not clear I felt I was close on the pole. Moved up to the 191 pole and took three jumps on it with ok result but did not click yet.

Yesterday we had our first N. FL Summer Series Vault and I jumped on the 192 pole, weighing about 188. Cleared 11-8 using the new pole (missed at 12-2) and felt very comfortable on it. I really have not practiced much since fall so I believe that is pretty good result right now.

The heavier rated poles are providing more lift as I get on them. They feel a little short but I am very comfortable going for each jump even though I am not currently burning up the runway. Technique is holding me back, I inverted pretty well on the 11-8 clearance but need more consistency through practice. I believe I'll be over the end of the pole soon if I can keep injury free. I have to say the lift seems stronger using the shorter heavier poles than I get on some of the lighter longer poles I generally have been using. I'll get to jump again in a couple weeks then hopefully I'll get more opportunities to report result as I get more used to the poles.

[Tom Wilson]

This post is being placed on my original safety topic and on the one Bruce at ESSX started looking at pole length vs weight for proper pole selection.

I have spent the summer working on the 13’ 187 and 191 poles from Bruce Caldwell at ESSX. Again I want to say thanks to Bruce for working with me on the original and added topic. My origination of the post topic was related to safety regarding pole weight rating to have to exceed a vaulter’s weight. As many high school athletes hold low on longer poles I questioned if that adds to or detracts from safety. Bruce’s point is the athlete is using too long of a pole and a pole will perform better if held higher relative to the length of the pole and then the proper weight pole could be used.

I have also done a lot of searching for opinions on the subject elsewhere. I did come across some of the original discussions when the rule was implemented and found the concern addressed with a decision agreed to amongst the rule makers that the rule was important and the realization could lead to higher costs due to a need for more poles and shorter poles.

So this summer I jumped nearly exclusively on the 13’ poles and my weight is generally in the 185 to 188 range, age 49. Result has been that nearly all my vaulting friends remark how much better my technique has gotten throughout the whole jump including inversion. However no higher clearances have occurred, although some of my jumps have clearly gotten me higher I just haven’t cleared higher bars. I find I am extremely comfortable jumping on poles at and over my weight using 13’ poles. The 187 is actually too soft and with the 191 I often still bury the standards at 31â€Â

[Bruce Caldwell]

Tom
Thank you for taking the time to prove that an athlete can jump on a pole rated at or above their weight. Thank you for your order of bigger poles they will be shipped soon.
TOM WILSON'S RESULTS AND SUMMARY
1) I agree anyone can jump on a pole weighted above their weight. It is a question of pole length.
2) I found using the shorter higher weight rated pole to be very natural to jump and improve my technique on. Using shorter poles that are rated above my weight has improved me as a vaulter.
3) Personally I will likely stay with buying poles at or more likely above my weight that are shorter than those I bought before.
4) In my high school volunteer coaching I will be suggesting when the school buys poles, I will recommend shorter poles than I have in the past. Most our high school vaulters are not the state elite level that need the longer poles. If we have success and need more poles for all or the elite I may suggest the parents get involved in buying poles or the vaulters get together for fundraisers.
5) Having a wide inventory of pole lengths and weights may be necessary to enable a wide variety of vaulters to have a chance to succeed.
6) As to safety when the proper length / weight pole is not available I do still believe it would be safer if we could take into consideration grip height in the rule. That won’t put the athlete on the best pole for success but I still believe it would make it safer for the athlete with a limited pole inventory