We are doomed. Repent and ask for forgiveness.

[master]

Is more force necessary to colapse the column if the bias is less and less force necessary if the bias is more?

I believe that is the case. I think it is an inverse, non-linear relationship.

It seems to me that the right arm alone will apply force straight down the column of the pole rendering it too strong to begin to bend. If the left arm gives a little more bend than the pre-bend supplies, then it seems that moving the pole would be easier.

The right arm does apply its force directly down the column. Wait a minute. As I was just typing that line I realized because the hand grips the pole, and the load is applied through the arm then through the hand, that creates a moment which in fact is a bending moment. In other words the force is not down the center of the pole, but rather offset from the center. I don't know just how significant that fact is, but it is a fact. This is something that could be modeled with a computer and software if you knew the characteristics of a pole, but it can also be empirically evaluated. I will think about this a little bit and maybe try an experiment in the morning.

- master

[OUvaulterUSAF]

Tim,

When trying to jump with a free take-off, you won't always have one every time, all the time. For me it's probably every 2 of 5 jumps. You'll feel it that first time...rather you won't feel the pole resistance in your hands. Goes against everything you've ever learned. And a free take-off will bring with it a whole new set of variables in the vault system you have to deal with.

Chris

[agapit]

Tim, thanks for doing this experimentation. My right shoulder is too old to do the experiments myself.

Regarding the need for something to start the bend, I submit for consideration that the pre-bend of the pole provides just the necessary physical conditions to do just that. From an engineering perspective, if you load a column it will resist the load very well if the column is uniform and of sufficient mechanical strength to avoid being crushed. But supply a bias and the collapse of the column can occur without crushing. The pre-bend pre disposes the column to bend in that direction. Once started, the bend is easily continued by the applied force.

OK. Now its everybody's opportunity to shoot holes in that idea.

- master

Is more force necessary to colapse the column if the bias is less and less force necessary if the bias is more? This is exactly my difficulty with Agapit's theory. It seems to me that the right arm alone will apply force straight down the column of the pole rendering it too strong to begin to bend. If the left arm gives a little more bend than the pre-bend supplies, then it seems that moving the pole would be easier.

Left arm pull accelerates the inversion and puts more energy into the system (bending pole more as well). Once start bending the pole will continue without left arm push needed.

[achtungpv]

Can you explain the left arm pull a bit more. Do you pull towards your body or down the shaft of the pole as the pole rolls forward and over?

[agapit]

Tim,

When trying to jump with a free take-off, you won't always have one every time, all the time. For me it's probably every 2 of 5 jumps. You'll feel it that first time...rather you won't feel the pole resistance in your hands. Goes against everything you've ever learned. And a free take-off will bring with it a whole new set of variables in the vault system you have to deal with.

Chris

Than is true. It will bring new variables. It will also pose a question what to do with it (free take-off).

I mentioned that earlier, but we have extimated back in the days that a push with the left arm delays inversion by minimum of 0.15 seconds due to simply a need for our muscle comlexes that participate in the motion to switch from push to pull. If it is a persistent push it may lead to 0.2-0.25 sec delay.

Considering that the off-the -ground phase is 1.4 sec and the inversion is only 70% of that 0.15 sec delay is 15.3% of the total available inversion time.

Refer to Original Manifesto to see why this is desasterous for the progress.

[Tim McMichael]

Tim,

When trying to jump with a free take-off, you won't always have one every time, all the time. For me it's probably every 2 of 5 jumps. You'll feel it that first time...rather you won't feel the pole resistance in your hands. Goes against everything you've ever learned. And a free take-off will bring with it a whole new set of variables in the vault system you have to deal with.

Chris

Thanks for the encouragement and advice, I need all I can get. I've done a free takeoff a number of times, and worked on it for about a month in ’92, but I have to change some things in my usual approach and plant mechanics to do it. I have talked about my physical limitations on a number of posts, but what I have not said is that my body control with a pole in my hands is freakish. LOL. If you want to see pretty much any style or model, I can pull it off in a couple of practices: double leg, French tuck, Buckingham shoulder turn, Bright collapse and shove, whatever. Just don’t ask for a Huffman roll. If this little experiment keeps going, and I get in any kind of shape, one of my ideas is to do a number of different vaults on the same pole, so that a more accurate comparison can be made between them. It would take the variable of the athlete’s physical make up and abilities out of the equation. At 40, I may not be able to do it though, and even if I am able, it may take several months to accomplish. I’ll have to test out the wheels and see. That is, if anyone is interested in seeing it done.

It will take more than a few attempts to do anything consistently. One thing to note in terms of my vault is that, though I was capable of a free takeoff, I chose not to do it. I did not feel that I could jump high enough off of the ground at a high enough speed to make it work for me. Like Alan says, "What is technically desirable may not be physically possible." In the month that I attempted it, I went down from a 16’5 175 to a 15’ 175 and dropped my grip 10â€Â

[agapit]

Can you explain the left arm pull a bit more. Do you pull towards your body or down the shaft of the pole as the pole rolls forward and over?

The direction of the pull in "real world" will depend on the grip height:

Low grips 14'-15' it is directed towards your chest
Mid grips 15’-16’ to your ribcage area
High grips 16'+ it is directed to your stomach-hip area

Now remember it feels like you are unbending the pole!

Good luck

P.S. Try only with proper supervision and start on very small poles.

[Tim McMichael]

Tim,

When trying to jump with a free take-off, you won't always have one every time, all the time. For me it's probably every 2 of 5 jumps. You'll feel it that first time...rather you won't feel the pole resistance in your hands. Goes against everything you've ever learned. And a free take-off will bring with it a whole new set of variables in the vault system you have to deal with.

Chris

Than is true. It will bring new variables. It will also pose a question what to do with it (free take-off).

I mentioned that earlier, but we have extimated back in the days that a push with the left arm delays inversion by minimum of 0.15 seconds due to simply a need for our muscle comlexes that participate in the motion to switch from push to pull. If it is a persistent push it may lead to 0.2-0.25 sec delay.

Considering that the off-the -ground phase is 1.4 sec and the inversion is only 70% of that 0.15 sec delay is 15.3% of the total available inversion time.

Refer to Original Manifesto to see why this is desasterous for the progress.

You are leaving something out of the equation. While reaction time varies from athlete to athlete and the conversion from push to pull will reflect that, anticipation negates that delay. When you know exactly when something is going to happen, you can time up movement to exactly that instant. If a sprinter knows exactly when the gun is going to fire, she can start very close to that precise moment in time.

Knowing exactly when my pole was going to hit the back of the box allowed me to time up my pull to exactly that instant. The push was supplied by the forward momentum of my left arm, but I was already pulling in the instant after my left hand hit the pole. The “muscle complexes that participate in the motionâ€Â

[agapit]

As a side note, what would you have me call my post, Altius? I only used Manifesto because it was suggested in jest when people asked me to do it. I agree that it is a less than adequate title. It is not as rigidly dogmatic as yours. I was not dictating how the vault must be done, only how I know it can be done. Besides, I am sure people are sick to death of hearing me talk about my own jump. I have a hard time not referring to it because I never considered any other technique except in terms of how it could help me personally vault higher. My understanding is necessarily more centered on personal experience and practical application, and not on theoretical possibilities.

Tim you're cool! You experimentation is very valuable.

One think people make a mistake with is a free take-off. The biggest benefit of the free take-off is to create opportunity to invert sooner. There are many people who take off away or even don't bend the pole on the ground, but what they do after that is wrong. Tarasov, Jeff, Markov are good examples of efficient take-off but beyond that nothing exciting. All of them end up in L-position. I believe, all of those three could jump WR+ with proper second half.

Now, through your stones.

[Tim McMichael]

You have challenged me with several things that I did not believe to be possible and I am trying to figure them out, but trust me, this is.

I take that back. I shouldn't say things that I cannot prove. This is what it felt like, and feeling is not always accurate. It is too subjective. The fact that anticipation negates reaction time, is, however, empirically demonstrable.

[agapit]

Tim,

When trying to jump with a free take-off, you won't always have one every time, all the time. For me it's probably every 2 of 5 jumps. You'll feel it that first time...rather you won't feel the pole resistance in your hands. Goes against everything you've ever learned. And a free take-off will bring with it a whole new set of variables in the vault system you have to deal with.

Chris

Than is true. It will bring new variables. It will also pose a question what to do with it (free take-off).

I mentioned that earlier, but we have extimated back in the days that a push with the left arm delays inversion by minimum of 0.15 seconds due to simply a need for our muscle comlexes that participate in the motion to switch from push to pull. If it is a persistent push it may lead to 0.2-0.25 sec delay.

Considering that the off-the -ground phase is 1.4 sec and the inversion is only 70% of that 0.15 sec delay is 15.3% of the total available inversion time.

Refer to Original Manifesto to see why this is desasterous for the progress.

You are leaving something out of the equation. While reaction time varies from athlete to athlete and the conversion from push to pull will reflect that, anticipation negates that delay. When you know exactly when something is going to happen, you can time up movement to exactly that instant. If a sprinter knows exactly when the gun is going to fire, she can start very close to that precise moment in time.

Knowing exactly when my pole was going to hit the back of the box allowed me to time up my pull to exactly that instant. The push was supplied by the forward momentum of my left arm, but I was already pulling in the instant after my left hand hit the pole. The “muscle complexes that participate in the motionâ€Â

[tmilhon]

OK lets talk about how to teach a free take off...