We are doomed. Repent and ask for forgiveness.

[Tim McMichael]

All I have to say is if you ever jumped over a bush with a stick you would know that it would not occur to you to push the stick, but rather pull on it.

I have been jumping over things with sticks since I was five years old, including but not limited to bushes, puddles, creeks, truck hoods, hay stacks, barbed wire fences, and fiberglass bars. If an athlete is stiff poling with their hands separated normally, the pull must come primarily through the top arm. The bottom arm is too close to the body to pull effectively. This is why the great stiff pole vaulters slid their hands together so that they almost touched as they left the ground. This allowed them to pull with both arms instead of being limited to the right arm alone. I maintain - and the illustration with the gymnast on the rings that you did not understand was meant to illustrate - that the left arm must be above the head if it is going to be of any practical use in pulling on the pole.

So you insist on pushing a pole for a tenth of a second or perhaps 0.0765 of a second. How do you figure how long to push.

What is the purpose of the push in the first place? Can you answer that?

I know that no one can think in terms of timing parsed to such thin margins. Awareness of the need to pull with the bottom arm and awareness of the position the arm has to be in to perform that function is all that is necessary to have the kinesthetic awareness to keep the pole from hitting you in the head at takeoff. Fee takeoff or not, completely collapsing the left arm is not optimal, nor is pushing on the pole in such a way that it inhibits other aspects of the jump.

The purpose of the push in the first place is to keep the left hand high enough above the head that the muscles of the upper back and shoulder can be used to pull. I'm sorry if I did not make that clear earlier.

The reason it was touching the head in the first place was precisely because he did not push the pole at all.

My point exactly. He did not push at all; his left arm collapsed at takeoff, and he jumped very high. Then his left arm stopped collapsing, and he jumped even higher. You speculate that there must have been a flaw in his takeoff that was later corrected. I speculate that he began to push a little on the pole just as he completed the free takeoff, thus maintaining the advantage of the free takeoff while keeping his left arm in a position to pull.

[agapit]

My point exactly. He did not push at all; his left arm collapsed at takeoff, and he jumped very high. Then his left arm stopped collapsing, and he jumped even higher. You speculate that there must have been a flaw in his takeoff that was later corrected. I speculate that he began to push a little on the pole just as he completed the free takeoff, thus maintaining the advantage of the free takeoff while keeping his left arm in a position to pull.

I am sorry. But I do not know how else I can tell you. He never ever pushed on the pole earlier or later in the carrier. The fact that his arm is in the better position for the pull is due to correct free-take-off action.

The video review is confusing for most people. You have to consider the following:
1. The free take-off is ALWAYS imperfect and the more imperfect it is the more left arm will move closer and on the big grips behind the head.
2. The pole is just beginning to bend and the distance from the vaulter to the left hand grip is increasing. This looks like a push, but it is not. The left arm pull is actually combined with the increasing distance due to the bending pole. The motion is very close to the action on the still pole as it should be. (Meditate on it. It will open up to you.)

It almost feels like you are trying to unbend the pole. Do not worry you cannot unbend it because your impulse (mass x speed) is what bends it in the first place not your left arm. In addition pulling action actually will bend pole more. I know it is hard to grasp but that is what mechanics tells us would happen and it does.

You know that you can bend the pole with the top arm only, right? If you don’t know that, I will go and film it for you for $500 bucks (my acting and supplies). I will through in the left arm pull as well for free.

Start the collection plate. LOL.

Go push on the still pole and people will laugh at you, why do it on fiber. Do you need to see the holes to repent? LOL.

Push on the pole and you will amount to nothing. I am done with this topic. Take it or leave it. Read my Manifesto for more explanations. Read it 3 times if it is not clear from the first attempt.

Regards

P.S. The only way I will continue on this topic if people would ask questions on how to implement this in training. Because, this is where the rubber meets the road. If you have no methods for implementation, it may take you years to find the way.

[SinCity]

agapit, I understand the concept of the top arm being the main lever in bending the pole. But, when you are talking about the pulling action. Would this be like pulling against the top of the pole ? in turn it could be refered to as pushing through the tip. Thus, keeping pressure on the pole throughout the jump and close off.

[agapit]

agapit, I understand the concept of the top arm being the main lever in bending the pole. But, when you are talking about the pulling action. Would this be like pulling against the top of the pole ? in turn it could be refered to as pushing through the tip. Thus, keeping pressure on the pole throughout the jump and close off.

No, I am talking about pulling as in unbending the pole. But if you try to do that, what actually would happen, your natural swing will accelerate. You could never unbend the pole with the left arm pull. You would actually bend it more. The extra force would come from the force that generates acceleration of your swing. I know it seems wild and I must say it is. Used it for years on vaulters from high school to elite. This is the future. Perhaps, I should say the past but hopefully the future as well.

It is good to start trying this on the training pole and very low grip for safety concerns.

Do not try it without proper supervision.

[fx]

I have a question. What is going on with the top arm at this time?

[carryabigstick]

Here is an analogy and this should sum all this mumbo jumbo up.
the human body had very similar relationships to the LEFT ARM PUSH VS. PULL ISSUE.

the popliteus muscle is a small muscle behind the knee. it is small but important. the hamstrings do 99% of the knee bending. however, if the leg is full extended, the hamstrings are not in a good position to bend the knee since their line of pull is parallel to the femur and tibia (leg). The popliteus (its so cute and misunderstood) performs the initial flexion and unlocking of the knee. Then the hamstrings can begin their task of flexing the knee since they now have a mechanical advantage.

Here is the point.......

The full extending left arm is important for a split second because it creates the "buckling force" just like the popliteus. It sets the pole bending and rotation into motion. Once the pole is in motion, the aggressively rowing arms continue to apply force in a pulling motion which promotes pole speed and accelerates the pole speed. If you apply the bucking force too long, the body only makes compensations which slow the rotations and application of real force into the vaulter-pole system. so yes.....the pole must be buckled. the take-off angle determines if the arm is straight or not. some it may be, some it may not. those whoe you Roman's method and are able to miss the "buckling" moment are not jumping on 5.10, 12.6 flex poles I bet. They might get away with it on 4m, 24 flex poles though simply through body weight compression.

[vaultman18]

Well I think Agapit clearly said Bubka never ever pushed the pole. I would guess he jumped on very stiff poles. (10.6 WR jump ) Pushing is a trap I know it.

[Tim McMichael]

You know that you can bend the pole with the top arm only, right? If you don’t know that, I will go and film it for you for $500 bucks (my acting and supplies). I will through in the left arm pull as well for free.

If you are willing to take the biggest pole you can possibly jump on, grip it as high as you possibly can and let go with the left hand in the middle of the plant, before the pole tip hits the back of the box, you will have earned that $500.

I say that only partly in jest. If it is indeed possible, it is a fact that I need to know.

[vault3rb0y]

Make sure you video tape it. You will end up on MTV's scarred next season.

[Tim McMichael]

Make sure you video tape it. You will end up on MTV's scarred next season.

Hold on Vault3rb0y. For all we know, he might be able to do it. I'm keeping an open mind. I don’t have my ego wrapped up in this thing so much that I cannot look up as well as down. I’ve learned a lot from Agapit's work on this board. His manifesto energized me and got me thinking when I had grown completely stale and stagnant. If it is possible to bend the pole with the right arm alone so that the left arm plays no role at all, I need to know it.

He has categorically asserted that the left arm plays NO role in bending the pole, so the demonstration he suggests means, as crazy as it sounds, that he can let go before the pole tip hits the box with no detrimental effect on his penetration. If a properly executed free takeoff means that the pole will bend away from the vaulter without the left hand ever having been on the pole, then that is news indeed.

I have long known that the left hand did not need to be on the pole to keep it moving. I used to let go just after takeoff to demonstrate this at camps. I have also known for a long time that the left arm need not play much role in starting the pole moving. I used to take a small pole and plant it with my hands only a few inches apart to force me to primarily use my timing and takeoff to bend the pole, but I have always believed that it had to play at least a fractional role in starting the pole moving.

I am willing to bet - though not $500 - that we are not communcating well, and what I am calling a slight push can also be expressed as a pull through the triceps just after takeoff, which would, of course, tighten them and keep the left arm from collapsing at just the right time to start the pole moving.

[vault3rb0y]

Yes maybe my logic is wrong, but i think of it like this. Last saturday night after prom we showed up at I-hop at 4 in the morning to get some food. I started playing with a straw and thinking about pole vaulting- this has a point dont worry. I know im simplifying this way too much, but i think of it this way...

I put the tip of the straw against my orange juice cup, with my pointer and index finger just under the tip of the straw on the other end. This simulated ones position at take off. Without any pre-bend in the straw, it was impossible to get the straw to bend outward. However i then took my other point finger and flicked the straw a few inches down from where i was holding.... and of course, the bend began. After the initial flick, as one might imagine, it required no flick; no bottom hand. Also, i noticed that the more pressure i put downward into the "box" (area where table and glass meet), the less of a "flick" was required to start the bend. However, it was still required.

At about that point, my friends asked me what the heck i was doing and called me a crazy pole vaulter when i explained it to them. Thats just a basic analogy, im sure there are tons of other variables that i dont know about that could allow a vaulter to bend a pole the way you describe.

[captainfalcon43]

It is to my understanding that the left arm is just used to stabilize the vaulter. I have also heard that it is used to prevent the vaulter from getting sucked under in their takeoff and to keep the vaulter in the correct position behind the pole bend so that a powerful swing can be initiated. It is not a push, but it does help the vaulter stay in right positioin....is that right?