We are doomed. Repent and ask for forgiveness.

[OUvaulterUSAF]

You're missing my point. And this will turn into an endless debate over simple semantics. It's how you define pulling. I defined it early above.

So the pulling force put on the pole during the swing at the point where the left hand is gripping, where does that force come from? Answer: several sources.

Subtracting the energy from the run/take-off, I say the majority of the force comes from the trail leg swing and gravity. Sure, I agree you're adding additional energy to the swing phase with the pressure created from the muscle tension/flexing in your left arm and shoulder. If that's what you define as pulling then fine I completely see your point but it doesn't comply with the definition of pulling above.

You can obviously see it in Bubka's vault, that he flexes his left arm but he also swings his trail leg.

Now what would you guess the distribution of force between gravity, trail leg swing and left arm "pull"?

Ok, I agree "pulling" as you define it will add energy to the swing...how much? who know's but every little bit counts.

[newPVer]

i'm confused what this post is on, pulling or 21' vaulter. i say yes on the 21'er, umm, idk on pulling. The messiah will return....

[Robert schmitt]

If you watch some video of Isebanyeva. As soon as she begins to swing she pulls with her bottom arm. I believe this is what agapit is refering to.

[agapit]

If you watch some video of Isebanyeva. As soon as she begins to swing she pulls with her bottom arm. I believe this is what agapit is refering to.

You are right.
Really one can do only three things.

1. Do nothing and not go over the bar
2. Row into L-position (try to do it in the gym you will laugh at yourself)
3. Pull into inversion as on the rope (in the gym as we all have done)

It is very simple but difficult to grasp. What confuses people is the fact that the pole is continuing to bed at the same time and the two actions of pulling and pole bed do not reconcile easily in a head.

I know I taught it to few people and I know it is a difficult concept to reconcile in one’s head, but eventually people get it and they feel they knew it all along.

[vault3rb0y]

Even though the left arm appears to be pushing, it only puts pressure on the pole for the merest fraction of a second as it comes up and behind the shoulders. After this, it is actually pulling on the pole.

for what its worth, i took this quote from the oklahoma pole vault manifesto thread found here.

Maybe this is a bit of what you are referring to agapit, in order to gain swing speed you must pull with the bottom arm a slight bit. However, the oklahoma PV manifesto has its differences with the petrov model, as anyone can clearly see by looking at the pages and pages of arguements on the thread. Im curious to see your thoughts on this style of jumping compared and contrasted to what you call the "prophet"'s jump. thanks!

[agapit]

Even though the left arm appears to be pushing, it only puts pressure on the pole for the merest fraction of a second as it comes up and behind the shoulders. After this, it is actually pulling on the pole.

for what its worth, i took this quote from the oklahoma pole vault manifesto thread found here.

Maybe this is a bit of what you are referring to agapit, in order to gain swing speed you must pull with the bottom arm a slight bit. However, the oklahoma PV manifesto has its differences with the petrov model, as anyone can clearly see by looking at the pages and pages of arguements on the thread. Im curious to see your thoughts on this style of jumping compared and contrasted to what you call the "prophet"'s jump. thanks!

This is a blasphemy my son. “merest fractionâ€Â

[Tim McMichael]

If a gymnast were asked to pull to an inverted position on the rings with as much force as possible, would he be more efficient if he began his movement with both arms straight, or with both arms completely flexed and his hands by his shoulders?

When I talked about the left arm pushing for the merest fraction of a second, I meant less than a tenth, and ideally this should happen after, or just as, the toe leaves the ground so that even this mere fraction does not inhibit forward and upward progress.

Early in his career, Bubka’s left arm collapsed so much that his hand nearly touched the top of his head; later on it became noticeably straighter.

Grip a relay baton or small section of pole, anything that will hold your left hand in the same position it would be in if actually vaulting. Stand with your hand touching the top of your forehead and ask yourself how hard you could pull on a pole from there and what muscles would be involved in that action; then raise your hand just a little above your head and ask the same questions. Then ask yourself where your left hand would need to be to pull as hard as humanly possible with all of the muscles in your shoulder and upper back coming into play. Remember to keep your hand closed on whatever tube you are gripping and facing exactly as it would if actually vaulting. You will find this position to be well above your head and even with a line drawn straight up from your forehead; the arm will not be straight, but bowed with the elbow facing outward. If you go too far and lock the elbow you will instantly feel that you can no longer pull at all.

It is impossible to jump high with the left arm straight and locked at the elbow, which is what is commonly meant by “pushingâ€Â

[agapit]

If a gymnast were asked to pull to an inverted position on the rings with as much force as possible, would he be more efficient if he began his movement with both arms straight, or with both arms completely flexed and his hands by his shoulders?

Sorry i don't understand your example.

[agapit]

When I talked about the left arm pushing for the merest fraction of a second, I meant less than a tenth, and ideally this should happen after, or just as, the toe leaves the ground so that even this mere fraction does not inhibit forward and upward progress.

So you insist on pushing a pole for a tenth of a second or perhaps 0.0765 of a second. How do you figure how long to push.

What is the purpose of the push in the first place? Can you answer that?

[agapit]

Early in his career, Bubka’s left arm collapsed so much that his hand nearly touched the top of his head; later on it became noticeably straighter.

The reason it was touching the head in the first place was precisely because he did not push the pole at all.

Partially there were errors at the take-off in particular, I believe, at some point he though that he needed to increase his chest penetration. They even did exercises directed specifically to that end.

I think he abandoned this later on or at least did not put as much emphasis on the chest penetration. Even great people make mistakes this was one of them (I believe). This error led to a flatter take-off and therefore the need for a greater chest penetration.

You can see at his best jumps the chest does not penetrate as far and the hand does not get as close to the forehead. However, that is NOT because he was pushing the pole, but because the free take-off was performed correctly.

In bad jumps such as in Seoul Olympic final third attempt where the take-off and plant were not done in synch (wind was bad), you could see excessive chest penetration and the hand almost touching the forehead. However, I do not believe that he was happy with the jump or was trying to repeat it again. It was a must clear, all go to hell, I am over the bar moment. Do not imitate this jump for your sake.

[agapit]

Grip a relay baton or small section of pole, anything that will hold your left hand

Please read three previous posts.

All I have to say is if you ever jumped over a bush with a stick you would know that it would not occur to you to push the stick, but rather pull on it.

Simply speaking.

I do not believe that in principle the 21' jump is any different.

[master]

You can see at his best jumps the chest does not penetrate as far and the hand does not get as close to the forehead. However, that is NOT because he was pushing the pole, but because the free take-off was performed correctly.

Let me ask this question. In a proper free take-off, should the vaulter attempt to have the arms and shoulders and chest muscles tightened at the time the pole tip hits the back of the box? I am thinking this would apply more of the kinetic energy of the vaulter's body to the pole by reducing the amount the upper body flexes.

- master