Bemiller/Mack Model

[achtungpv]

I would be willing to bet that Mack jumped 5.86 at least 40 times. If consistency is being debated, look at Hartwig- he jumped at least 5.88 (15cm under his PR) over 100 times. Ok, back to the topic at hand...

Hartwig over 5.80, not 5.88, over 100 times.

I'll take that bet on Mack. I would think he's only had around 40-50 competitions over 5.70. He's only jumped 5.70+ for 6 seasons and over 5.80 in 4 seasons.

[JKSvault]

Achtungpv- Good call on the 5.80 not 5.88, quick math messed my conversion up slightly.

Hartwig jumped over 5.88 on 34 separate occasions (23 outdoors, 11 indoors).

I finally found the site I was looking for, I am withdrawing my statement that Mack has jumped within 15cm of his PR on 40+ occasions. Touche Achtungpv

[VTechVaulter]

i think theres far to many factors that we cant analyze to have a clear answer

yes, macks push off on his pr was higher than bubkas on his pr. by the numbers anyway. we cant estimate the total height either cleared. however i would wager to say that bubka has pushed off over 120 on multiple occasions.

that being said, we also dont know if tim has pushed off further on some of his other jumps.

i also think its worth noting, that there is no point to saying better technique in the air. technique of a vault starts long before your in the air. the vault is a process and so is its technique.

as a final thought, i still must say that T Mack is the man and reguardelss of what technique he used to get there, is an olympic champion, a fact which can never be taken away, even if he went over head first.

[vaultman18]

JKSvault
I see where you are coming from but I still think you are wrong. I think it is safe to assume Tim could not have cleared much higher than 6.01m but it is also safe to assume Bubka could have cleared much higher.
ADTF Academy wrote:

So how do we measure this. Simple bar cleared minus effective hand hold. However, The crossbar is just an arbitrary object used to decide a winner not in looking at efficiency. Lets look at potential because thats what matters when you look at efficiency. Mac's 6m jump could he have gone any higher, how much higher was his hips over the bar. Bubka's 6.01 jump could he have gone any higher, how much higher was his hips over the bar.

JKSVault you need to reread this. ^^


You are saying it is more effcient to run slower and use softer pole. But I will contend that jumping 6.15m is more effcient than jumping 6.01.
Let me put it to you this way Mack vs Bubka head to head Mack jumps 6.01 holding 5m 121cm push, Bubka jumps 6.01 holding 5.18 103cm push. Now bar goes to 6.06 Mack fail 3 attemps holding 5m, Bubka makes holding 5.18 108cm push Bubka wins and ends competition his push was only 108cm yet he won and went no futher does this make him less effcient? NO it doesn't it just means he jumped higher as he did on many real occasions he just stopped 1cm at a time you are not using all the numbers or variables. It is easy to make the above senario because it happened many times all you have to do is plug in any vaulter. If Bubka and I stepped on the runway today he would jump 5m and go home (maybe less). When one vaulter jumps a hieght and can't go any higher and the other jumps a higher hieght and chooses to stop to earn more $$ you can't just look at two jumps and Mack only has a handfull of other jumps that can really be compared (less than 10).

[ADTF Academy]

[b]This is where my argument was derived. A vaulter who transfers less KE into the vault, yet achieves greater GPE (a larger pushoff) must be more efficient in the air. Bubka carried more KE into the plant, yet achieved less GPE (BASED ON HIS 6.15 JUMP).

Well said, ADTF Academy, you were able to put it into words better than I was able to. [b]

In terms of what, a bar cleared or hip height acheived. How can you determine Bubka acheived less GPE on his WR jump then Mac did on his jump? Besides an arbitary bar cleared you have no prof on that.

[vaultman18]

VTechVaulter you are right Tim is the man. Please don't get me wrong Tim is awsome. And to defend Tim from myself all his numbers aren't being used either mainly because he is still competing. When Tim retires we will be able to be more accurate.

[master]

Some of the terminology used in this topic's posts causes this ol' engineer to wince. I think most can agree that a vaulter generates horizontal kinetic energy (KE) with his approach run. I think we can also agree that the bending of the fiberglass pole has converted much of that KE. During the swing and rotation of the pole to vertical (still bent), most of that horizontal KE has been converted to potential energy (PE) or lost to pole or vaulter inefficiencies. At this point the system is mainly PE, but there is still a great deal of vaulter interaction that can influence the how efficiently the vaulter can convert this PE to vertical KE. How fast the vaulter is traveling vertically when he makes his pole release would be a great statistic to have. At the instant the pole is straight, the pole/vaulter system has done all the energy conversion. Any thing else is the result of technique, form and standard placement accuracy for that particular jump.

So if we are looking for some measure of "efficiency" of using a pole, I would contend a ratio of vertical KE (output) to horizontal KE (input) would be a first approximation. But since the vaulter's actions of using that vertical KE to clear a bar is significant, that would have to be factored in also. That brings a whole other form of analysis, or selection of a measurable characteristic that people hopefully could agree on. ( but I wouldn't bet on that happening.)

- master

[altius]

" but bubka's "lack of efficiency" came from one issue and one alone... that issue eventually gets the best of the best and will even "get' izzi if she isn't careful... it happened to gatalin and he was every bit the a$$ kicker bubka was...

that issue...? to stiff of a pole and like slick said...maybe to much grip..."

With all due respect to your grey hair and experience dj that is an amazing statement - SURELY THE OBJECTIVE OF ANY AMBITIOUS AND TALENTED VAULTER IS TO GRIP HIGHER ON BIGGER POLES - so that they can clear higher bars! How often did Bubka land short -get into danger - because he was using a pole which was too big or because he gripped too high??? And again it was not his speed on the runway that allowed him to jump high on those poles with safety it was a technique which enabled him to put energy into the pole from the first step until he pushed off the top -take another look at agapits continuous chain!

I suggest that you direct your concern about that to all of the high school kids and their coaches in the US who ARE putting themselves in danger because of those issues

There are no prizes for style in the pole vault - however there are for a technique which enables you to grip high on big poles - a la the Petrov?Bubka model. Yes Petrov/Bubka!! Petrov devised it with help from other Soviet coaches, taught it to Bubka who demonstrated it pretty well/ remember he jumped the magic 6.00metres in 1985!!!! But dont let us forget the next two highest vaulters in history - Tarasov and Markov - different style - same technical model.

Interesting to note that Petrov thinks Walker is the closest of 'foreign' vaulters to that model!

[JKSvault]

I will get back to some of the other posts in a little while when I get back to my house. But before I do that, I want to lay out two simplistic scenarios for everyone.

Scenario A- Suppose you had $9500 to invest and you take it to a money manager. This money manager will be referred to from here on out as MMA. After a given time, you decide to withdraw your money from MMA. At this time you find out that your money has been increased to $10,500, for a return of $1000.

Scenario B- Suppose you had $10,000 to invest and went to a different money manager ("MMB"). After the same period of time as in scenario A, you decide to withdraw your money from MMB. At this time, you find out that your investment has increased to $10,300, for a return of $300.

In the above scenarios, which money manager would you say was more effective in handling your money?

[dj]

someone might want to establish exactly what contribution - if any - our friend 'agapit' - a Petrov disciple - had in Tim's later development.

allan... how many ways can i say "0" nada... NONE… NIL.. ZIP..

roman didn’t have anything to do with Tim Mack and his progress.. he lived in Knoxville… I lived in LA so Maurice greene was mine!!!!!!!

this is not about Russia, the US or Elaine, Arkansas.. this is about an efficiency “modelâ€Â

[JKSvault]

Altius-

SURELY THE OBJECTIVE OF ANY AMBITIOUS AND TALENTED VAULTER IS TO GRIP HIGHER ON BIGGER POLES

There is a point of diminishing returns when getting on bigger poles while maintaining efficiency in a jump. At some point, a pole gets too big for a vaulter to use while maintaining the same efficiency they had on a softer in their series. This does not mean, however, that this person will not be able to land safely into the pit.

I suggest that you direct your concern about that to all of the high school kids and their coaches in the US who ARE putting themselves in danger because of those issues

You brought up the issue that we are making statements based on our patriotism, however, it looks to me that you are the only person making comments geared towards one's nationality.

[captainfalcon43]

it looks to me that you are the only person making comments geared towards one's nationality.

He is hardly being nationality driven in his explanations. He just brought up the sucess of Brad Walker, who is of an American Nationality. It is necessary to speak of the Russians as a whole because of their similar technique and same model. No matter what athlete you speak of, they are going to be from a certain nation. And altius certainly didn't let nationality effect his reasoning because he held more confidence in the ability in an American than the Australians.