Bottom Arm Issues

[gl356407]

ive always had problems with my bottom arm, the first one being the issue of "pushing up" with the bottom arm at take off. what kind of things do you think about to do this? also, are there any drills/exercises that might help with this motion?

as well, the second thing thats always been bugging me is that immediately after take off, i start to "row"/"down-pressure" with my top arm. BUT when i do this, i start to pull in with the bottom arm, causing me to move closer to the pole instead of "creating space". again, what cues do you use to prevent this, and are there any drills to be practiced?

[MuVault21]

I seem to have the tendency to keep pressure with my bottom arm out instead of keeping pressure up. As a result by applying pressure forward and not up I get fiber faced! does this make any sense? I think this could be a result of too wide of a grip. I find the narrower the grip it would seem to be easier to apply pressure up instead of out. However, for me it is not the most comfortable. What can i do to keep pressure up rather that working against my pole and pressure up to start my row?

p.s Zach when are you going to realize that i finally posted on PVP after soo long! is this a sign i am becoming more addicted to pole vault?? someday i will have mroe posts than you

[FlaKoach]

In the latest issue of Track Coach, there is a very interesting critique by David Bussabarger (brave for 'daring' to critique her form). The two aspects that fascinated me (as a coach of girl vaulters) is his take on

1. what the bottom arm should be doing at take-off
2. why women's hips may cause 'bad form'

Looking at the first, I have just about given up on waiting for a girl to learn to bend the pole WITHOUT straight-arming the pole with the bottom arm (we call it 'blocking'). We all understand how 'bad' it is to push straight out with the bottom arm (it severely inhibits the swing), but HS girls are simply not fast/strong enough to bend the pole with just the top hand's pressure. Intermediate girls (beginners need to just focus on the swing) can't hold high enough to create the kind of pressure that will initiate the bend. So we 'block' and learn how to bend the pole and then collapse the arm after the pole begins to bend in order to start the swing. It's not a great solution, but the only one I know.

On the second idea, he opines that a women's relatively lower CoG (i.e., her 'bigger' hips) is the reason why women can't sustain the vertical body position through the pull/push phase, and instead they fall off vertical too early (which is what I've always noticed - girls get their feet above the top of the pole but are caught in the L-position and just drop their feet back down way too early, whereas boys can hold the upside position much longer.

Any commentary on any of this?

[txpolevaulter_k25]

i dont fully agree with the girls not being able to be inverted as along as boys because i have seen some girls hold vertical just as long as guys

[rainbowgirl28]

On the second idea, he opines that a women's relatively lower CoG (i.e., her 'bigger' hips) is the reason why women can't sustain the vertical body position through the pull/push phase, and instead they fall off vertical too early (which is what I've always noticed - girls get their feet about the top of the pole but are caught in the L-position and just drop their feet back down way too early, whereas boys can hold the upside position much longer.

I have not read the article, but I am surprised he makes that statement while critiquing Isinbayeva. I think the top end of her swing is better than any guy's I have ever seen, including Bubka.

I don't disagree that most women are falling off the top, but Isi sure doesn't.

[ladyvolspvcoach]

Hi, I've coached a lot of high school girls and D1 ladies. My experience has varied, but generally in high school there seems to be little inspiration for the girls to do the sufficient training in the weight room and gymnastics centers. Their greatest handicap is upper body strength. I try to overcome as much of that as I can bythe kind of drills that I have them do. They build upper body strength and help develop an upward impulse movement at take off. For the collegians I see a remarkable change in their abilities about 6 to 8 months after they arrive on campus and begin our weight and gymnastics training. Suddenly they are able to handle themselves on the poles with some authority as opposed to surviving the vault as most do in high school. A good measure of their upperbody strength is how high ABOVE their grips they can jump. Most in high school seldom jump near their grips.
But your observation about the girls coming off the top earlier than guys is more related to the upper impulse (some might read jump) movement at the moment of take-off. The bigger the impulse at take-off the closer to the pole they will remain at the top. Check out Feofanova and Isi. Great examples of both...

[sooch90]

I'm reviving this slightly outdated thread by presenting the little dilemma I'm having.

What are you suppose to do with the bottom arm??? First I heard it was pressure, then I found out that putting lots of pressure caused people to block out, so no pressure, now I'm finding then I need to put more pressure!

So in a jump what should the bottom hand be doing, assuming you have a nice tall plant, with your hands high, and your steps on, does you bottom hand do nothing, or do you press against the pole?

If you press, doesn't that greatly reduce the speed of your swing? How do you put pressure, and then release it?

[FlaKoach]

If you don't create space between you and the pole (i.e., you must not collapse your bottom arm), the bend will be inefficient and you will have difficulty getting the pole to bend (unless you are really tall and are holding high on a long pole, e.g. 13'-14') and using the bend you do get to help you. Men do not have to brace out the bottom arm because they ARE tall enough and they are holding high enough to create the bend just by pushing both arms UP (as opposed to out in front) at take-off. HS girls just can't do that on 12' or 13' poles unless they have really strong upper bodies. So the dilemma is, either block out with the bottom arm, to initiate the bend, but thereby blocking a good swing, or collapsing the bottom arm, not getting sufficient bend to be helpful, but being able to swing. I've had much more success with our girls (12'9, 11'8, 11', 10', 10') blocking with the bottom arm than letting it collapse, but it's cost them a great swing in every case. This has not been a problem with the boys, who are stronger and holding higher on longer poles, so they can just push UP at take-off. The 'perfect' (IMO) bottom arm position at takeoff is 90 degrees (at elbow) and holding that through penetration, but that takes more arm strength than virtually any normal HS girl has.

[vault3rb0y]

From what i have recently heard and understand, you need to put pressure upwards with the bottom arm, but only enough to keep your body aligned and in an inverted C position. As you swing, the bottom arm simply guides the pole and you mainly balance on your top hand. Think about what you do on a straight pole drill- Usually push it just enough to keep your hips from coming forward. I think the same may be for the real vault, but i could be wrong.

[sooch90]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8344&hl=en

Okay, I hate to bring up my video outside of the thread I created, but I'd really like to get the right idea here.

So in my jump, My bottom arm is completely bent at take off, with the elbow actually going in front of the pole (on the outside). However, I still get in to an inverted "C" position, and I still bend the pole (it's stiffer pole, 150 lb 14', holding around 13').

So what exactly is the bottom hand preventing me from doing? I mean clearly not having a great bottom arm is doing something but what is it?

[vault3rb0y]

I could be wrong, but your bottom arm isnt too bad in that video. It seems to me, that your TOP hand is the problem in the vault. It gets jammed backwards, rather than pushes up at take off. Its going to move back a little, but i think that generally it stays only slightly behind your head, and your bottom arm applies a little pressure but mainly guides the pole. Other than that, your bottom arm is doing what it should be. It isnt blocking you out, i think on that particular jump your hips just didnt keep moving up the pole enough. A lot of that could be because there wasnt much energy being given back to you by that pole. Again this is just my perspective, it could be wrong!!

[sooch90]

I could be wrong, but your bottom arm isnt too bad in that video. It seems to me, that your TOP hand is the problem in the vault. It gets jammed backwards, rather than pushes up at take off. Its going to move back a little, but i think that generally it stays only slightly behind your head, and your bottom arm applies a little pressure but mainly guides the pole. Other than that, your bottom arm is doing what it should be. It isnt blocking you out, i think on that particular jump your hips just didnt keep moving up the pole enough. A lot of that could be because there wasnt much energy being given back to you by that pole. Again this is just my perspective, it could be wrong!!

Hmm, I actually hadn't really thought about my top hand like that before.

So how does the top hand... not get jerked back? Perhaps an earlier plant? Cause I know I do have a late plant, and usually that results in me letting my body move in to the pole, and my hands just get pulled back. So I guess drive the hands up at the plant, and get them up earlier?

Thanks!

Edit* one thing though, if my bottom arm is okay, then why is it so bent? I mean of course it shouldn't be completely straight, but why isn't it even slightly? Because of my top hand?