Bemiller/Mack Model

[JKSvault]

After doing some research, I have come up with a point that I believe should be put out there for all to see. I’m sure some will disagree, but before disregarding this opinion, look at the 6m chart on PVP. By the numbers, I believe that Tim is technically a better vaulter than Bubka. I arrived at this by analyzing the numbers on the 6m chart. Holding 5.18m, Bubka achieved a push off of 117 cm. Tim on the other hand, achieved a push off of 121 cm (holding 5m). These 2 vaulters were identical in weight, but Bubka was approximately .44 m/sec. faster through the last 5m of the run.

Based on the fact that Tim was slower into the plant (and jumped on a smaller pole than Bubka), yet achieved a greater push off would merit a good argument in regards to who the best “technicalâ€Â

[altius]

"I believe that Tim is technically a better vaulter than Bubka." You seem to be assuming that technique in the pole vault begins when the athlete leaves the ground - or even when they push off the pole.

NO you must think of a vaulter's technique as beginning with the first step of a superb, technically excellent run up, pole carry and plant - because these are major factors in the height you can grip a pole - and thus - along with your differential - how high you can jump. But there are no prizes for the best differential!

Re what Tim MIGHT have jumped - first let us compare what he actually did jump and then ask how may times Sergey jumped higher than Tim's PR. Then if you want to get into hypotheticals, take a look at Bubka,s 6.01 jump in Athens - that was a 6.40m jump.

Before the patriots jump into the fray let me state categorically that I am not questioning Tims achievements or that he was/is a great athlete - Olympic champions are always that. I am just questioning the assumptions that have been made and would certainly prefer that the old hoary chestnut of Bubka's speed is not hauled out again. HE believes that his technique separated him from the other vaulters of his era and that is good enough for me. Would that ALL ambitious vaulters study his method and try to jump like him instead of copping out on the basis that they could not run as fast as him.

Those who believe that speed is THE key to to becoming a decent vaulter and jumping high, turn the vault into a question of genetics - this means of course that they dont have to use their brains to understand the Petrov/Bubka model or do the hard work needed to develop that most effective technique .

[dj]

good morning

There is no question that mack’s efficiency, vaulting technique and use of the bending pole are superior to bubka’s on the couple of jumps we have been analyzing… 5.90/6.01 the numbers don’t lie… bubka had more speed and yes he had some jumps that were “matchedâ€Â

[JKSvault]

Good points, altius Let me rephrase what I was trying to say. From the time that the two athletes leave the ground, I believe that Tim is more efficient than Bubka. For an athlete to be less superior in the speed department (less energy into the pole), yet achieve a greater pushoff (more energy out of the pole), says to me that this athlete must be more efficient and more technically sound OFF OF THE GROUND.

I don't think there is a need to compare how many times Bubka jumped over Tim's PR, for I never questioned Bubka's accolades. I simply stated that, in my opinion, Tim is more efficient and technically sound off of the ground. I will save you the argument that Bubka was more efficient based on the fact that he was able to jump on bigger sticks. This simply means that he was effectively able to convert the speed that he carried onto the runway into his plant. Shouldn't a vaulter with "superior" technique that jumped on bigger sticks be able to generate more energy off of the pole?

[vaultman18]

Holding 5.18m, Bubka achieved a push off of 117 cm. Tim on the other hand, achieved a push off of 121 cm (holding 5m).

by saying this you assume Bubka could not clear 6.01m holding 5m. Is it not possible that Bubka could hold 5m and clear 6.01m or even 6.15m. There is no doubt Tim has reached great success relitive to his physical ability. But one could also point out Bubka underachieved when it comes to how high he cleared. It is easy to see that Bubka could have easily jumped higher and Tim probably will not. Bubka has more 6m clears than the others combined.
(27-26) outdoor If I counted correctly. If you count indoor the number (41-35). OK what were Bubka's hand holds on all of his 6m or higher jumps. I can't prove it but I would think he may have had a 121cm push on one of those 41 clears. Once again I must state this is not a knock on Tim. I do not respect any other Pole Vaulter more than Tim Mack.

[JKSvault]

"There is no doubt Tim has reached great success relitive to his physical ability. But one could also point out Bubka underachieved when it comes to how high he cleared."

Vaultman- This is exactly my point. What is your definition of efficiency in technique? To me, maximum efficiency is achieved when a resource (in this case Tim’s physical abilities) is fully exploited. Your statement that Bubka “could have easily jumped higherâ€Â

[vaultman18]

JKSvault your original statement compares push. But you are comparing a 6.01 jump to the WR 6.15. as I stated before Tim jumped over 6m once Bubka 41. You are making a comparison based on 1 jump. Can Bubka jump 6.01 holding 5m I say he could have. Look at Tim's 6.01 and compare it to Bubka's 6.01 in Athens. Until you can find all Bubka's grip hieghts on all of his 6m clears you can't properly compare these to athletes. You are comparing Tim's PR to the WR, compare the same hieght. You can't compare Bubka's 6.15 because no one is close. But you can compare some of Bubka's lower jumps to Tim's to see how they line up. You should finish your research before you make a claim. As for efficiency Tim only has one thing Bubka doesn't, Olympic Record. Bubka was pretty darn effiecent 6 world titles 1 olympic gold and set 35 world records only person to ever jump 20'. Bubka jumped 6.05 in 1988 two people have been able to repeat this mark in 19 years. Bubka was very efficient.

[dj]

hello

Vaultman

You are refusing to look at efficiency numbers.. and continue to only look at the obvious speed and possibly strength differences…

Efficient: producing the desired result with a minimum of effort, expense, or waste…

Did bubka have a jump .. anytime.. as efficienct?? Probally yes.. and probally more than one.. but the bubka “techniqueâ€Â

[captainfalcon43]

In the jump at Athens that the Japanese Scientists calculated to be about 21'8", that push off had to be over 121 cms. On the 6 meter chart it says that Bubka is shorter than Tim Mack too. Bubka had to have superior technique and a higher takeoff angle to be able to hold higher. Bubka was able to have a superior run and takeoff which gave him the ability to hold higher than Tim Mack. If those Japanese Scientists were right, then Bubka had a bigger push too, which gave him a better second half of the vault as well. Bubka had such a powerfull and superior swing that it was hard for him to control himself when going over the bar. One of the few times that Bubka came out straight during Athens was when he was calculated to have cleared 6.40. Every aspect of bubka's vault was superior because of his technique and incorporatoin of the Petrov Model. He could run, takeoff, swing, and jump better than anyone else has ever been able to do.

[dj]

hello

first why do we call it the "petrov model" i think only petrov can do that... what we are dealing with is our perception of a "bubka" model..

i think we will progress more in our understanding by comparing energy in .. energy out and other simularities and/or differences ...

so what is different about the two jumpers??? that pretains to energy in energy out....

dj

[vaultman18]

DJ I still contend Bubka is superior. Are you saying Bubka can't jump 6.01m holding 5m from possibly a shorter slower run. I believe he could have many times. You are still trying to tell me that one jump 14cm lower than Bubka's PR is better. You can't possibly take ONE 6m jump and compare it to 41 6m+ jumps and say the technique is better. DJ you are not putting all the numbers in. It is hard to compare Mack and Bubka because Tim is slower. But I contend at the same speed Bubka could have jumped higher. Too many variables between the two jumps to say that Tim is superior given he didn't acheive as high of a hieght. Maybe Bubka overgripped and he could have jumped 6.40 when he "only" jumped 6.15m. Maybe Tim's absolute max is 121cm and Bubka's is 150cm. The unfortunate part is Bubka never cleared a bar in comp. that is close to his max ability and I think Tim has. I would like to state again this is not to knock Tim or anything he has accomplished.

[SlickVT]

The fuse is lit. When will the bomb explode?