Speed or Strength?

[jumpbackin]

Contracting muscles are an energy system in themselves. They add work to the flow of energy that the run and plant set up. It's that simple. Muscle contraction = added energy. We can debate about how much, but the added energy is there.

Sorry, I have to disagree. Muscle contractions redirect the energy of the approach and takeoff. They do not add to it. That is why speed is more important than strength. Speed establishes the potential of the vault. Muscle contractions, used correctly, actualize that potential.

I can see a good argument being made that from the rock back position a forceful pull and push off will add energy to the vault. However, the stiffest pole a vaulter can possiply use is established by his speed and body weight (inertia). If the thrust out of rockback is more forceful than the pole can take, it will moosh and not provide the spring.

[Skyin' Brian]

strength is speed

[tstkl]

Contracting muscles are an energy system in themselves. They add work to the flow of energy that the run and plant set up. It's that simple. Muscle contraction = added energy. We can debate about how much, but the added energy is there.

Sorry, I have to disagree. Muscle contractions redirect the energy of the approach and takeoff. They do not add to it. That is why speed is more important than strength. Speed establishes the potential of the vault. Muscle contractions, used correctly, actualize that potential.

I can see a good argument being made that from the rock back position a forceful pull and push off will add energy to the vault. However, the stiffest pole a vaulter can possiply use is established by his speed and body weight (inertia). If the thrust out of rockback is more forceful than the pole can take, it will moosh and not provide the spring.

so your saying when you push something, and your muscles contract, your not actually doing anything?

maybe if we all thought this way, lifting weights would be a lot easier.... I mean, if it takes no energy, why do I struggle on my 100th rep of 75 lbs?

this goes back to the whole passive phase stuff and the difference between the 6.05 model and the 6.40 model. Bubka believed that you could always be adding energy to the system throughout the vault, and in my opinion, his vaults were much faster, smoother vaults than others.

compair:
http://www.stabhoch.com/pages/19920713_Bubka_611.html
to
http://www.stabhoch.com/pages/20060719_Walker_600.html

right when walker changes from "einrollen" to "L-position", there is a pause, a "passive phase", which basically breaks his vault up into two actions. The compression of the pole and the decompression of the pole. The stopping point is when he is finally finishing putting all the inertia and everything he has from his speed into the pole, and everything afterwords is his strenght, and the pole decompressing.

no matter which model you look at, they both add energy to the system after the pole has been completely compressed.

[jumpbackin]

so your saying when you push something, and your muscles contract, your not actually doing anything?

maybe if we all thought this way, lifting weights would be a lot easier.... I mean, if it takes no energy, why do I struggle on my 100th rep of 75 lbs?

this goes back to the whole passive phase stuff and the difference between the 6.05 model and the 6.40 model. Bubka believed that you could always be adding energy to the system throughout the vault, and in my opinion, his vaults were much faster, smoother vaults than others.

I'm not up to date on the passive phase stuff or the two models. I'll try to look at the videos later. I'm not saying your muscles arn't doing anything or that strength is not important. It's very important for redirecting the energy. With complete certainty, once a vaulter leaves the grownd, there is a limit to how much energy he can put into the pole and that maximum is determined by his speed, weight, reach and weight distribution. Being physically stronger can not add to that maximum.

When the pole begins springing back, I don't have the same certainty that added strength can't bring in more energy. After all, there is then the ability to push off the ground through the pole, so it is not quite the closed system it was from takeoff to rockback. I do still think the point I made on this in the last post is relevant.

On a personal note, I know giving unrequested training advise is not cool, but I am not a cool person, so, if you are doing sets of 100 I think you should seriously examine your trining. If your reply to me is something like "my name is Jeff Hartwig" you will have my apology.

[baggettpv]

To all,
What this means is you don't ever want to hang, wait, pause or any other term that describes an innaction in the vault. Thats what the European coaches have been trying to say (not the French, they don't say much!). I have interpreted my discussions with the Europeans as the vault is an active event all the way through to the conclusion. any innaction will cause a loss of energy being absorbed by the body. Sending body parts in every which way (except the one way you want).
We can talk more in late September at the gymnastics clinic.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[master]

With complete certainty, once a vaulter leaves the grownd, there is a limit to how much energy he can put into the pole and that maximum is determined by his speed, weight, reach and weight distribution. Being physically stronger can not add to that maximum.

If this were true it would seem to follow that a long jumper who carried a baseball down the runway and into his jump, could not add any more energy to the flight of that ball by throwing it forward once airborne.

- master

[jumpbackin]

With complete certainty, once a vaulter leaves the grownd, there is a limit to how much energy he can put into the pole and that maximum is determined by his speed, weight, reach and weight distribution. Being physically stronger can not add to that maximum.

If this were true it would seem to follow that a long jumper who carried a baseball down the runway and into his jump, could not add any more energy to the flight of that ball by throwing it forward once airborne.

- master

He can tranfer energy from his body to the ball, but, the total energy of the man and ball in the air remains the same. If he trows the ball forward his body will land slightly shorter.

[master]

He can tranfer energy from his body to the ball, but, the total energy of the man and ball in the air remains the same. If he trows the ball forward his body will land slightly shorter.

That is a very good point; looking at the vaulter and pole as a system. With that in mind and continuing the same analogy, what if he were to throw the ball backward? Would that provide some additional forward propulsion, resulting in a slightly longer jump? (Of course I am not suggesting this would be a good idea, just using it as a means to get my mind around the ideas.)

- master

[jumpbackin]

He can tranfer energy from his body to the ball, but, the total energy of the man and ball in the air remains the same. If he trows the ball forward his body will land slightly shorter.

That is a very good point; looking at the vaulter and pole as a system. With that in mind and continuing the same analogy, what if he were to throw the ball backward? Would that provide some additional forward propulsion, resulting in a slightly longer jump? (Of course I am not suggesting this would be a good idea, just using it as a means to get my mind around the ideas.)

- master

Yes it would. That's why long jumpers throw their hands back just before they land. That backward movement keeps their feet in the air slightly longer.

Obviously this whole discussion is symantics. Everyone will agree it takes great strength and technique to transfer as much energy as possible into the pole and then take it back out on top.

[Skyin' Brian]

this long jump talk is interesting, and i think i understand what you guys are getting at, but....

lj'ers are in the air, not touching the ground in the motions you describe. Pole vaulters are anchored to the ground via the pole, for almost the entire vault(please, lets not turn this into another "free take off" debate)

[master]

So now that I feel I understand the idea you were communicating, I will think about the vault in those terms. Although I don't have time to do it now, hopefully I will in a few days. Discussions like this help my brain stay a little bit limber, like vaulting itself does for my body.

- master

[Tim McMichael]

He can tranfer energy from his body to the ball, but, the total energy of the man and ball in the air remains the same. If he trows the ball forward his body will land slightly shorter.

That is a very good point; looking at the vaulter and pole as a system. With that in mind and continuing the same analogy, what if he were to throw the ball backward? Would that provide some additional forward propulsion, resulting in a slightly longer jump? (Of course I am not suggesting this would be a good idea, just using it as a means to get my mind around the ideas.)

- master

This is exactly what long jumpers in the ancient games used to do. They carried weights and threw them backwards during the jump. This resulted in some astonishing distances. I would like to see someone figure out exactly what they did and recreate it. That would be interesting.

As far as the closed system argument goes, I want to add this thought experiment. Suppose an athlete is hanging on a high bar. He is not moving at all, just hanging there. Then he pulls explosively and swings to inversion on the bar in a fraction of a second. This movement is done with nothing but muscular power. All of the energy necessary to drive his body from a passive hang to an inverted position has come from contracting muscles, and nothing else. Now simply transfer that same motion to an athlete who has just left the ground during a vault. It has to add energy to the system. I can't see how it couldn't.

As far as this causing the pole to mush, the answer is simple - get some heavier lumber. Grab a pole that won't mush and raise your grip.