Pole Vault Manifesto

[ADTF Academy]

agapit wrote:
You want as simple and as to the point as possible. Try this out for size.


agapit wrote:
1. When should swing begin and why?


When your body tells you to begin the swing, based on how long it takes your body to become fully stretch out (becomes completly elastic) from the top hand to takeoff foot toe, which is based firstly on your plant and takeoff mechanics. The timing of the swing can be increased (sooner) based on your ability to get into a fully stretched position efficently and as quickly as possible (bottom arm pull concept this post was originally based on) most people say drive their chest. It is only part of the equation keeping it moving is the other, bottom arm pull.


agapit wrote:
2. How could one increase the speed of the swing and generate more energy at the same time?



Simply put by not doing anything to slow it done. Let the hips/pelvis naturally snap back into alingment when the midsection release the stretch reflex then don't let the hips fall behind. Let the quad/ hip flexor snap the foot back into position and then keep your body as tight as possible. Due to this and the hips moving deep the shoulders are also sucked deep putting pressure on the pole keep the top arm behind the shoulders slightly longer. This makes the shoulder drop (pull action) easier with the top arm behind the shoulder and hips above the shoulders more force can be proved as well as performed quicker and with more power. Keep the hips moving deep.


agapit wrote:
3. Does swing need to be shortened at the hips (famous L position) and why?



If your a swing vaulter, NO!!!!! Angular momentum is the same rather your swing is short and quick or long and slower. The momentum generated is the same. Only differnce is you have no wasted moments to inversion. If you stay as straight you don't have to then extend so your total swing to inversion is actually faster. Trippy I know. Your hips continue to move. Aim your hips not where your hands are but where they are going to be. Up and above your not back and behind you.

[Tim McMichael]

ADTF Academy

Could you perhaps include some illustrations with your comments on pole cord and rotation? I am finding it difficult to get a picture of what you are describing. Words are so hard to use as descriptors of movement that I think I could work at it for a year and not quite describe what I am trying to say.

Thirdly, a final rotation is the poles coiling and uncoiling process. The more you tuck or fold at the waist the smaller you become, Yes so you can increase your rotational velocity. However, if your a bunched up ball the pole can react easier and start to uncoil quicker and quicker thus running away from you and beating you to inversion.

You are exactly right in describing what a tuck does to the pole. The sooner the vaulter arrives at the finish of the swing, and the more they are bunched up in a ball, the earlier and stronger the pole recoils. Here is the crux of our disagreement: This is exactly what I want to happen. I don't understand how a pole recoiling faster and faster can be a bad thing. Once I am folded up with the weight of my legs behind my hips, I want the pole to come back as fast as it possibly can. On my best jumps it feels like someone has turned my 180 into a 220 after I have finished swinging. When it starts to recoil I can barely hang on to it. It becomes a race between the pole and me to see who can get to the top faster. From a tucked position I have the advantage of a massive pull and explosion upwards with my hips. If I win that battle (and I often do) the result is a big push-off. This is how a less than stellar athlete can get a 50â€Â

[ADTF Academy]

Tim I am in no way knocking this. For me what you describe is what I call a pressure or power vaulter.

many vaulters have made a great living and still do on this model.


in fact if this is what a young vaulter wants to do then what Tim describes is exactly what is going on.

I recognize and realize the potential with the model your describing. However it is not what I coach. I coach a more swing oriented model to inversion.

You are talking about tucking and shooting hence getting launched. Which is better this has been the discussion for the past 20 years.

Some of us and most are now going to the swing. Everyone for a long time went to power vaulting.

Will tides turn again who knows.

This is the point I have been trying to make for a long time. Know your model and know what you need to do to make it better. Tim knows his model and what he did maximized his results using that model. Could he have jumped higher using a different model who knows. Thats what makes coaching a science.


How do you teach your model to produce the greatest results. Those that can teach do those that can't don't.

[Robert schmitt]

I asked this a while ago here's the topic
http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4823&start=0
and specifically the question and reply by altius

Robert Schmitt:
Hey I have a ? for altius and agapit. In the vidieo of bubka jumping 6.11 he swings to just above his ankles then does the "bubka"(like the drill) motion of extending along the pole. This semms like a some what "passive" motion to me. Would it be more efficient to stay-for the lack of a better word-longer through out the swing and make contact with the pole at the knee or above the knee(on the thigh)?

altius
PV Pro



Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 392
Location: adelaide, australia

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:18 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Robert S -It is definitely not a passive motion. As long ago as 1985 Petrov described this innovative aspect of his technical model and it is a very active movement in which the shoulders are driven back towards and pad and the hips punched upwards. It is the third 'stage' of energy input in thie Petrov/Bubka model. it keeps the pole flexed for milliseconds longer - and positions the athlete close to the pole as it recoils so that the energy return is as efficient as possible. Wink

_______________

[fx]

I think that the overall energy put into a pole with a full body swing should be about the same amount of energy that is put into the pole using the swing with the bend at the waist/ bubka's style. I will admit that during the swing phase swinging through with a completely long body will add more energy than a swing that bends at the waist. However, this energy is regained when the vaulter that bends at the waist drops the shoulders and thrusts the hips up along the pole, which adds more energy to the pole. This cannot be done by the full body swing vaulter because the long body swing ensures that the hips are already up, and the shoulders already dropped, so there is no longer any more room for the shoulders to drop and the hips to thrust up.

[AVC Coach]

I like to think of it as, not so much dropping the shoulders, but letting the rest of your body follow your hips. "Dropping the shoulders" gives me the mental image that the vaulter is waiting on something, and I don't think that's what these brilliant coaches or the manifesto are trying to describe.

Tim has a good point about the shorter vaulters succeeding with the tuck and shoot. I coach young athletes and all of them have their own vaulting personalities, so addapting my language for each individual includes keeping every fiber of their body moving up no matter what the size of the vaulter. I just want them to keep their trail leg straight past parallel with the runway. After that, depending of their body type and core strength/quickness, we determing what works for them and build on that.

Great posts by all! Keep them coming, cause I'm enjoying the read and the learning experience!

[ADTF Academy]

why can't the shoulder drop (bubka motion for the sake of better terms) be perform with a straighter body. A long swing does not neccessary mean your body stays entirely straight at all times. Can it be done on big sticks I hope someone can try it would be very difficult. To mean a long swing is in terms of doing anything it takes, staying as straight as possible, for the continuation of the hips to inversion. If the hips stop moving at all then it is a wasted motion (tuck and shoot). Watch the hips if your trying to be a swing vaulter or use the continuous chain model or the 6.40 model or what ever it is you want to call it. Your hips must never stop moving from the moment you leave the ground till the moment you let go of the pole and land in the pits. If you hips stop moving your not following this model your following another one. Which is not a bad thing just realize your not following this model.


Is there a slight bend in the waist for this model there can be one and should be one to a point as long as the hips keep moving.

Secondly is there the shoulder press down and under you action and energy creating with a more straight body. Oh yeah! you don't do a giant on the pole. Eventually you drive your shoulders under your hands so your hips run into your hands. In fact the movement is easier and can be done with more power if your hips are one higher than your shoulders before you begin the motion and secondly if your shoulders are in front (pit side) of your hands. If these two things are acheived you can with pure strength and power perform the bubka motion with ease and maximal results. A third possibility is if your hips are below your shoulders, but you can get your hips on the back side of the pole (watch bubkas jumps hips are below shoulders slightly but hips are on pit side of the bend, because he did a great job moving the bend to the side) then you can perform this motion as well with ease.

However if you do not have your hips above your shoulders or hips on the pit side of the bend the motion will be more difficult and it will be a motion to raise the hips first and then create energy. If the things I mentioned happend the hips are already rising so the shoulder drop is to create energy only and therefore more energy can be created.

[baggettpv]

I like to see the athlete in the inverted position (similar to the bottom side of a free hip) while the pole is still bent and and the pole is at an angle off to the side.
I also like the body to line up with the chord of the arc of the pole when it is at a 45 degree angle out of the box. (Check out a geometry book on what the chord of an arc is).
Along with these when they do a free hip handstand on the high bar I like to see the bar bend UP when they move to the handstand. I really like that! Boy do I really like that!!!

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[Mecham]

I'm sorry I have been driving all over the country to get to a wedding and back, and I have just been skimming through this topic. But I am seeing that you guys want a completley straight body throuought the vault? or during a certain point in the vault? And how does one become "elastic" I remember hearing a coach from Rice or something about becoming elastic at Reno.

[dj]

good morning

well said tim...

and this action adds "speed' and force to the swing.. if the vaulter stays extended
through the arms.. you can actually see bubka's, t-macks and others vaulters poles
"come-over" ,bend slightly at the top when this happens..

once the vaulters body reaches horizontal to the ground.. the pole is going to "unload".
.the vaulter needs/must be in position to go as vertical as possible... shortening the
radius while keeping the arms extended can help this.. continuing to bring the knees toward the
elbows/handgrip appears to be how even bubka does it...

but i have found a difference in how it is done with tuck vaulters and what we call
swing vaulters..

tuck vaulters, going all the way back to the french, tend to stop the swing from the
shoulders which creates a break in the application of force, which will slow the pole
penetration, which makes them inconsistant... and they end up "stuck" balled up
under the pole and can't catch the pole to finish..

jeff hartwig is possibly the best "tuck" vaulter ever for his size.. and i have looked
at good verses bad... the same with french vaulter t-vignerion.. both these vaulters
"moved through what we consider the "tuck" phase faster on good jumps..

and to cut this short and explain, here is the key point.. on the better jumps by all
these vaulters, t-mack, bubka..etc.. there was an increase in the speed of the swing
"rotation" and... and when the vaulter arrived at the inverted position the hips were
high... in other words instead of coming back with the top hand to the shins or knees
the top hand came to the thigh/groin...

this help the vaulter stay closer to the "cord" of the pole and "go through" the position
rick explains that is achieved in the "free hip" move on a high bar..

hope this mnakes sense.. this move, and you see it on t-macks jumps... and i will say it
again, is as good as it gets, and he pracitcices that with a drill called a "superman'

mike tully was just putting that into his vaults in 1987/88 and it helped him jump 19'
regardless of the conditions, his speed or fitness level of the day...

take care

dj

[Tim McMichael]

I've posted some old videos of my jump under a new thread under the creative heading of "My Jump" I hope it will help flesh out some of the things I have tried to describe.

[baggettpv]

On a powerfully executed free hip to handstand the bar will actually bend up as the athlete completes the handstand. If thats not adding energy to the move I don't know what it is then....
Everyone is welcome to come to my place in Oregon for a weekend of extensive training of the moves in Gymnastics. Say a weekend in September before actual training starts?

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC