Pole Vault Manifesto

[fx]

rodeojoe74 wrote:
Agapit wrote:
[***You never answered why the swing should be shortened.]

It speeds up the process. A fully extended swing to inversion would be slow.


not slow, slower. slower does not mean less energy.

rodeojoe74 wrote:
Also, energy would be lost


( how would it be lost?)

So what you're implying is that a full body swing would be the best in terms of adding energy into the pole. Is that even possible on a decently large, bending pole? I know when I'm doing pop-ups holding down on a stiff pole, it feels like I'm not bending at the waist at all, and I'm doing a full body swing, but I dont think this would be efficient on a bent or bending pole.

[BethelPV]

FX... Why wouldn't it be efficient? Pictures this, you are vaulting on a 16' pole, and you in the middle of your swing you tuck and shoot. You lose so much energy and so much time that the pole beats you to inversion and you lose out on a lot of energy. Now picture swinging the whole way with a straight body. Because of this you are a lot more powerful, add more energy into the pole, and reach inversion without any hiccups or pauses or in better words no passive phases. Which one would you prefer, probably the one where you aren't passive, load more energy, and beat the pole to vertical, there for getting a lot more in return from the pole and most likely clearing a higher bar. It is all about energy and how efficient you are, and if you swing with a straight body, you are a lot more effiecient and store a lot more energy!

Again just my 2 cents worth, but i hope it makes you think FX and maybe come up with something new, thats what this board is here for!

Zachmo

[fx]

Alright now I'm thinking and here's what I've got:
Right now we're talking long, full body swing right? I was NOT talking about tuck and shoot, I was talking about what we consider a full swing, but it is still not full body, because it bends at the waist/hips. This is what I assumed we were supposed to get out of this; that a longer, completely straight body swing is better because it puts more energy into the pole. However, I was going to say that it is necessary to keep the hips loose and be able to bend at the hips during this swing, instead of swinging with the whole body straight. The entire body swing would put in a lot of energy, but it would also be very slow, and I dont think that the vaulter would be able to catch the ride in time. Aside from this, moving from
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18723103144.jpg&s=f10

to

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18723114073.jpg&s=f10

with a completely straight body (no pike at the hips) would take a lot more energy, thus wasting the additional energy that would be gained by a full body swing.

BTW Bethel, Agapit asks if the swing should be shortened by bending at the HIPS, which is what I believe most people will do during what I consider a swing and not a tuck and shoot. Note the bend at Bubka's hips, while he is doing the swing. I'm pretty sure you'll agree that bubka was not a tuck and shoot vaulter during his career.
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18723214841.jpg&s=f10

[ADTF Academy]

with a completely straight body (no pike at the hips) would take a lot more energy, thus wasting the additional energy that would be gained by a full body swing.

Why would you say a completely straight body would take more energy. Angular momentum which determines your rotational abilities is the same rather you have a short radius (folded body tucked) and a quick rotational velocity or longer radius (completely straight body) and slower rotational velocity. The amount of angular momentum/torque you produce to start your swing is utilized through the entire swing.


I think the interesting area that most are missing is the bent pole and its relationship with a folded vaulter swinging and a straight vaulter swinging. If you fold and get a shorter radius it will increase your rotational velocity but what effect will it have on the bent pole? On the other hand if you stay long and straight your rotational velocity will be slower, but what effect will it have on the bent pole?

Which will cause you to miss the boat as you put it. Folding or staying straight? To really answer this think of you a slingshot and your the object hanging from the end of the bent pole.

[fx]

Good point ADTF, that was some hasty, not too well though out writing on my part. Mostly I was just kinda angry about this thing that keeps on happening on this site. As soon as I mention anything about shortening, or anything that might be associated with the tuck and shoot, no matter if I'm talking about shortening and bending at the waist or something not related to the tucka and shoot at all, someone always jumps out and gives me a huge lecture about the evils of the tuck and shoot. A lot of people on this site have some tuck-and-shoot phobia and it gets annoying because it feels like I always have to explain that I know what a swing is before I post anything.

[BethelPV]

FX... I was not saying that Bubka tucked and shot... I was using it as an analogy to show that any sort of bending at the wast takes up time, whether it be piking to reach your feet to the pole or tucking into a ball... whichever you choose it causes a passive phase that is not needed. So I am sorry if you feel I was lecturing about the evils of tuck and shoot because I wasn't. It works for some people and that is great, I myself am a victim of it as I still am trying to remove it from my vault. I was just using it as an easy example to explain the differences because there is such a difference in the two. As ADTF put it, bending at the waist might quicken the swing up just a little bit, but it could allow for the pole to begin unbending too soon, where if you are applying more force to the pole through swinging with a straight body, the constant force you are giving into the pole keeps it bent longer, and allows you to utilize more of the force of the unbending action of the pole later in the vault!!

Zachmo

[fx]

Alright another thing I just thought of. One of the main ideas of efficient vaulting that I have heard (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the center of mass must remain close to the pole. However, with a full body swing, eventually, the center of mass will be way out from the pole.

[BethelPV]

This is true, that the center of mass will get away from the pole for a brief second, but then again isn't the pole bent to the sid anyways? What will happen with a full body swing is that you will continue to move the pole into vertical and load energy into the pole as it bends and moves out to let you through, but once you finish this swing, you should be completely inverted and the pole should begin to unbend. When this happens tbe goal is to remain as tight to the pole as possible and recieve all the energy you stored from your long swing... thus the center of mass is gone for only a matter of a split second...

Zachmo

[fx]

Wow I guess thats true, I didnt really think about that. Sounds like you have to be really strong and powerful though to whip through with the entire body and keep straight. Have you done a full body swing before? How was it?

[BethelPV]

Absolutely not, I am not strong enough. I am just a college student myself who studies the vault and tries my best. I have done a lot of research in my spare time to kind of try and get the best knowledge base of the vault, and I just try and help out anyway I can on here... I just wish I could swing with a whole body tap, that would be awesome... but I guess that is what we all train for right?

Zachmo

[Tim McMichael]

OK, I’m going to get roasted for this, but here is my defense of breaking at the hips. Sorry Agapit, this is going to take more than ten lines.

The physical law involved is called “Conservation of Angular Momentum.â€Â

[ADTF Academy]

I will agree with you no one has been able to do it completly. Is it possible to do it completely only time will tell if someone is willing to attempt to pull it off.


What I think is the mssing link is the following. Even if you break slightly at your hips the hips must continue to move. Watch Isinbejeva her hips never stop moving. The rockback drill is the worst thing you can teach your body. Fold at the waist and bring your knee to your chest is a passive moment.

This does not keep the hips moving they stay down. The quicker the hips continuously move the better off you are. In the end it is how fast you can get your hips over your shoulders not your feet over your shoulders. You can do a lot of things to speed up getting your feet over your shoulders but not your hips over your shoulders. There is only one main one. The shoulder drive (pull) down and under you.

Secondly, pole rotation. If you hips move as deep into the pits as possible during your swing it will pull your shoulders deep as possible which will help with pole rotation as well as putting pressure on the top of the pole. Doing this will put your COM pulling in the direction the pole is trying to rotate. If this is reduced then your COM falls back into alingment with the pole cord or worst off behind the pole cord making pole rotation harder.

For me this is huge if you can increase the ease of pole rotation you can then do what? Jump on stiffer poles and potential longer ones as well. Naturally and smoothly.


Thirdly, a final rotation is the poles coiling and uncoiling process. The more you tuck or fold at the waist the smaller you become, Yes so you can increase your rotational velocity. However, if your a bunched up ball the pole can react easier and start to uncoil quicker and quicker thus running away from you and beating you to inversion.

Personally I feel the longer you stay long the better off you will be. It just goes against normal logic. The slight folding I talk about is simply a pelvic rotation is aimed at rolling the pelvis over the upper abs. The purpose of this is not to fold but to accelerate the hips. The focus must be on continuously moving the hips. Who cares how fast your feet move if your hips stay down.

Now I don't think this is what TIM was saying. I just know that many young vaulters think it is a matter of moving their feet and swing them as quickly as possible. The focus must be on moving the hips not the feet