Bubka Heresy One

[achtungpv]

Just when I thought this forum had jumped the shark like others before it, a great post is dropped. Cool.

[altius]

Well Tim - you got me there! my PR is 8'11" (yes Eight not Eighteen) set in 1957 after ten jumps into a sand pit using a steel - perhaps tungsten - pole in my aths course at Loughborough College in England.

I have always claimed that since the sand was lower than ground level the difference should have been added to the height I cleared.

Now you know my terrible secret perhaps I will have to stop pretending I know anything at all about this great event!

[SKOT]

Now you know my terrible secret perhaps I will have to stop pretending I know anything at all about this great event!

Please don't do that to us. We like your ideas(and your rants...they make us laugh!)

[master]

Tim and Altius,

Keep up the great dialogue. What a pleasure it is to read the articulate and knowledgable posts you submit. Being someone who is studying the vault as well as trying to relearn it, I applaud your work and appreciate your willingness to take the time to share your knowledge and thoughts.

- master

[Tim McMichael]

ADTF Academy -

You are absolutely right about the ego problem. Mine is enormous. I can hardly help it getting in the way. (Did I really have to mention Newton in my last post?) You are also right about the problem of getting lost in differences in terminology. No term is as important as the thing it is meant to describe. It would be a great step forward if we could come to some kind of common understanding of general principles. A reduction in ego would go a long way to helping this to happen. Mine has already taken quite a beating, but only in the sense that I have discovered ideas and explanations that are better than my own – which is a good thing.

[Tim McMichael]

Altius –

Your personal best has absolutely nothing to do with your knowledge of the vault or your ability to contribute to it. I think sometimes the best coaches are those who have little or no background in actual vaulting. They often bring a fresh and creative perspective to the event. Honestly, some of the most passionate and effective coaches I have ever known could not vault a lick.

As a case in point, I was once in a hotel lobby in Taiwan talking to Bill Payne and his coach, Carl Erickson. Bill said something to the effect that Carl had never made a bar. To which Erickson replied that he had made 8’ once and that Bill had seen him do it. Bill, however, reminded him that his prosthetic leg had come off halfway through the jump and that since not all of his body had cleared the bar it didn’t count. Altius –you are way ahead of that.

[ADTF Academy]

Altius –

Your personal best has absolutely nothing to do with your knowledge of the vault or your ability to contribute to it. I think sometimes the best coaches are those who have little or no background in actual vaulting. They often bring a fresh and creative perspective to the event. Honestly, some of the most passionate and effective coaches I have ever known could not vault a lick.

I am in no way an athlete anymore just a lonely coach trying to prove he isn't crazy. My college days of running distance are well over. Know I don't feel as bad about my 13' pr in high school. I was a great one let me tell ya. The huge bottom arm that was being taught in Michigan, wow was I something back then. Now I vault for the fun of it as well as trying to prove my theories correct. I am a student of me. Sense I put a pole down for 5 years of college and just recently 2 years ago picked one back up I have put my training and theories into practice. Redesigning my body from a distance runner to a sprinter/jumper. Redesigning my vault and producing a new Pr of over 16' on a shorter pole than I jumped 13' in high school. I wonder if any other 16' vaulter has gone under 25:00 for the 8k.

It is sad that out of my whole post all you got was in regard to me as a supposed athlete. You wrote and I quote.

"My best advice is this: find a good coach whom you trust. Let him or her worry about theory. Your job is to do your best to follow their advice without thinking too much about it. Don’t worry that by doing this you will be missing out on theoretical understanding. Theory can only be helpful to an athlete after it has been translated into muscle memory."

My comments in the post had in no way anything to do with me as a vaulter but me as a coach with theories and explanations and an ego as well.

Ahh well I guess some day. I'll keep working on 19 feet for now.

[Tim McMichael]

ADTF Academy -

Good Lord. That was the last thing I wanted you to get from my post. I was actually in the process of editing out the part that you found offensive when you read it.

I realized that I knew way too little about you to give that kind of advice. So I took it out. The truth is that it is very late, and I am very tired and I did not want to write a long post. Your comments about initiating the pull and turn with the left arm alone were right on, and I planned on addressing them in another post. This is exactly what Bubka did, and there were good reasons for him doing it. I hoped my first post would inspire someone to point it out so we could discuss it.

I felt that the portion of your post where you talked about being afraid of looking imperfect in competition was the most serious in regard to your own jumping, and I wanted to address it first, only out of a sincere desire to help, and I know how much it helps to have a coach do some of the thinking for you when you are trying to compete. I then realized that you might already have a coach or might actually be a coach, so I edited my post.

Coaching yourself from 13' to 16' after college is an amazing achievement. I have never heard of anyone doing anything like it. It more than qualifies you to contribute your ideas to this board. (Not that I am anyone to say who is and is not qualified to do so.)

If I have offended you, I am truly sorry. It was not my intent at all.

I will say stupid stuff from time to time. I find that I can't talk about something I am truly passionate about without sounding like an idiot once in awhile; it just goes with the territory.

Also, what I said about my ego getting in the way was not just polite nonsense. It really does. And this conflict is a case in point. I thought of you as an inexperienced college athlete, and after I posted, I realized I had no reason for doing so, mostly because of the technical elements of your post. Once again, no offense intended, just a case of mistaken identity, desire to help, and pride on my part. I will be more careful in the future.

Peace.

[Carolina21]

I would like to pose a question to Tim and Altius, and everyone on this thread. The original topic (that unfortunately got a little off track) was about Bubka's top end of his vault and his seeming lack of control at times. Let me pose this question, and preceed it with the following: there is much much lore about Bubka and it can be very difficult to divide the truth from the fiction so I am only going on things I have heard and my own experiences I have never met Bubka and only listened to Petrov at the Summit but never had any dialogue with him.

Ok, not to at all compare myself to Bubka but let me say i think this is something most vaulters would agree with maybe not...

I have cleared 5.30 on both a 15' pole and a 16' pole and a 16'5 pole in meets. In my experience with the same aproach run I can, on a good day, and on any of these poles clear that bar. However, with a 15' pole I am forced to use a lower grip than I normally would and in a sense rocket off the top and hit a nearly perfect jump with what feels like an out of control top end at times (a la Bubka) in order to clear 5.30. With a 16' pole, however, I can in my opinion make many more mistakes and still clear 17' because my top is not as dynamic, and in a sense, easier to control because such a dynamic explosion off the top is not neccessary and this is even more true with a 5 meter pole. I know technically it is all the same in terms of energy but in terms of our bodies ability to control that energy and the speed and directions and timing that the energy is returned it is different. So my point and question is, would Bubka have been better off with a higher grip on a longer pole, and would any vaulter be better off with a higher grip and longer pole, or be better keeping a lower grip and exploding off the top like Bubka? I have heard Bubka played around with longer poles but due to pole technology and just getting a little spooked with the fact that the 17'+ poles might or might not break at any given moment kept him away from them or maybe entirely different reasons(like they discovered this combonation of lower grip larger push was in fact better).

I would love to hear some opinions on the matter. I know everyone wants to be cautious about saying big grips because often time’s younger athletes will move their grip higher than they really should or are ready for but this is more a question about elites.

Basically if you have solid technique does using a lower grip and hitting an explosive top end breed inconsistency and make for a more difficult jump to repeat, or is there a distinct advantage to this type of jump?

[agapit]

Several years ago, I asked Petrov about copying Bubka . His answer took me by surprise. He told me that the brilliance of the American vaulters was in innovation and that no copy could ever be as good as the original. I think he was right. We can, and should, copy basic principles and try to improve on them if possible, but copying the exact positions of a particular athlete is not a good idea.

Now I am going to commit heresy.

Bubka often went over the bar like someone tossed a bale of hay in the air. (An Oklahoma expression) He pulled through his extension and turn with his left hand alone and sometimes let go of the pole so early that it actually jumped out of the box. He cleared world records going over the bar on his right side with his left arm extended and his right arm tucked back awkwardly. He was always fighting over rotation. If you look closely at the bar level shot of his monster world championship jump in Athens you can see that he almost hits it with his left knee. His center of gravity makes it by about a foot; his knee by about four inches. Bubka was great, the greatest ever, don’t get me wrong, but his sheer power, I think, blinds us to the fact that there were imperfections. He may be a great model to follow, but I am tired of hearing that he was perfect. There is no such thing.

I realize I might be burned at the stake for saying things like this

In 1983 I was sitting and watching vaulting competition with a former World Record Holder Vladimir Poliakov (5.81 in 1981). We were talking about different styles and vaulters and he offered me his opinion about Bubka. He said that he does not have a good technique and that Bubka has a bad form and he would not copy his style. Vladimir was a perfection in the vault, beautiful. Just as Tim described, Bubka was a helicopter over the bar. At that particular competition he cleared 5.60 without a turn!!!

I offered my opinion to Vladimir. I said that technique is not about the beauty, but about effectiveness. Bubka’s jump is so energetic that often it is difficult and not necessary to perfect (Seoul 1988 Olympics). If you generated energy to vault 6.40, the perfection of the form becomes a secondary issue. The question becomes how to generate more energy.

I was talking with Yagodin (Grand Father of Russian Vault) in Moscow, few months before Bubka jumped 6m for the first time, when Bubka came with his brother Vasily. We were talking when Yagodin said to him: “Sergey if you could hold your feet together during the pull phase you can go much higher.â€Â

[OUvaulterUSAF]

Carolina21 posses a good question. I have no problem looking like Bubka on my 15' pole jumps, thanks to BTB technical model and the last 6 months of training. Currently I'm transitioning to my 16' poles and am having a difficult time getting into the covering position yet I can clear the same height. Still holding 15' on both poles.

I figure it'll take time for me to get use to the different cell piece so I'm not too worried.

[agapit]

Several years ago, I asked Petrov about copying Bubka . His answer took me by surprise. He told me that the brilliance of the American vaulters was in innovation and that no copy could ever be as good as the original. I think he was right. We can, and should, copy basic principles and try to improve on them if possible, but copying the exact positions of a particular athlete is not a good idea.

Now I am going to commit heresy.

Bubka often went over the bar like someone tossed a bale of hay in the air. (An Oklahoma expression) He pulled through his extension and turn with his left hand alone and sometimes let go of the pole so early that it actually jumped out of the box. He cleared world records going over the bar on his right side with his left arm extended and his right arm tucked back awkwardly. He was always fighting over rotation. If you look closely at the bar level shot of his monster world championship jump in Athens you can see that he almost hits it with his left knee. His center of gravity makes it by about a foot; his knee by about four inches. Bubka was great, the greatest ever, don’t get me wrong, but his sheer power, I think, blinds us to the fact that there were imperfections. He may be a great model to follow, but I am tired of hearing that he was perfect. There is no such thing.

I realize I might be burned at the stake for saying things like this

In 1983 I was sitting and watching vaulting competition with a former World Record Holder Vladimir Poliakov (5.81 in 1981). We were talking about different styles and vaulters and he offered me his opinion about Bubka. He said that he does not have a good technique and that Bubka has a bad form and he would not copy his style. Vladimir was a perfection in the vault, beautiful. Just as Tim described, Bubka was a helicopter over the bar. At that particular competition he cleared 5.60 without a turn!!!

I offered my opinion to Vladimir. I said that technique is not about the beauty, but about effectiveness. Bubka’s jump is so energetic that often it is difficult and not necessary to perfect (Seoul 1988 Olympics). If you generated energy to vault 6.40, the perfection of the form becomes a secondary issue. The question becomes how to generate more energy.

I was talking with Yagodin (Grand Father of Russian Vault) in Moscow, few months before Bubka jumped 6m for the first time, when Bubka came with his brother Vasily. We were talking when Yagodin said to him: “Sergey if you could hold your feet together during the pull phase you can go much higher.â€Â