Big Bend vs. Smaller Bend

[dj]

hello

i'm not sure if i have seen a bubka jump that was more technically sound..than tim's 5.90 jump...

with the grip, pole bend etc matched to the speed and takeoff...

bubka had more speed on the run and created more horizontal force at the takeoff but i don't have or haven't seen a jump to "model" any better than tim's..

i felt on many of his jumps he was on to stiff of a pole... a little softer pole.. higher grip and he would/could have jumped 21'+

dj

[polevaulter08nw]

i think that the bend fits the person who vaults with it the best and if they work with the poles more that they will understand how to utalize the bend they have, no matter what hieght, yes some bends are harder/or require something different from the vaulter, but maybe some vaulters like haveing a pole with different bends, such as the poll on this thread, i personal like the altius and spirit better than most, but i really don't like a small bend. Im sure someone, like tommy skipper (who uses a carbon) likes his pole just as much as tim mack, while some girls that i vault with like pacer fx the most. just thought i would through something kinda even out there.

[ADTF Academy]

DJ Now I get what you were saying. I had to re ready it again.


Let me see if I got you understood this time.


In the original post he put Bubka was shortening to 30% and Bell and Tully only to 28%. Then you increase Tully shortening to lets say 32% and he started jumping higher due to the shorter pole cord.


This I agree with now because it makes more sense in your point. sorry for not understanding you in the first place.


If you watch Bubka 6.01 jump lets say. The pole had already finished its uncoiling or straightening before Bubka was on top of the pole to utilize all the remaining potential energy. Some of it had to be used to raise him the rest of the way then finally to the flyaway.

DJ made an excellent point in that if you can time the vault correctly with the pole and your technique that you can cover the pole as it is finishing its straightening process you will acheive an amazing flyaway as Tim Mac did.



My contention is still this that bend % is too great. But technically changes must be made in order to get on these stiffer and longer poles and still be able to cover them before the pole straightens completely. Until such date Bubka's record is safe.

Tim's ability to cover the pole in time might have produced a better technical advantage but lack of length and speed will produce a lower height. How can we take what Mac did and put it on a stiffer pole and beat the pole to inversion.

This comes back to all my posts and the post by Agapit. If you watch the videos of all these males and watch the body arm. It runs away from them or they are applying the upward pressure with it. Once this happens the top of the pole's rotation is accelerated which runways from most vaulters or for the elites causes them to work harder to keep the shoulders down. This wasted energy could better be used to explode the hips up sooner thus allowing the vaulter to cover the pole earlier and utilize all the potential energy that is available leading into the flyaway. Also this could also be used in the notion of a continuous chain model by instead of being used to keep shoulders down it coudl be used to apply more energy into the pole.


On a side note with what DJ said and I agree with on the idea of using a softer pole to cover the pole easier. The only issue is this. What the locked out bottom arm and top arm shoulder causes premature rotation hence the rowing phenomenon. This is impossible to do. These soft poles once the pole cord has been shortened to much will roll over way to quick for this type of vaulter.

What we are talking about is impossible to utilize hence why most power vaulters (locked out bottom and rowing hands) resort to tuck and shooting. If the pole is to soft the over rotate if it is too stiff and rotation is correct they can't beat it to vertical. In the end frustration because they want to get vertical yet they never want to get rid of that bottom arm.


DJ, Great discussion! The challenge becomes how do we get people to realize the power behind these posts and second to understand that based on the technique they use there are consequences and because of the results created with how they chose to perform the Takeoff and loading of the pole that what we are talking about is not goign to happen.


hence why we have some jumpers who are jumping 17 feet + who have around a 2 feet to 2 feet 6 inch flyaway which is pretty sad.

[polevaulter08nw]

what would be the desirable fly away height of a 17+ jumper, as we see spencer mcCorkel cleares 17'3 with a pretty big fly away height if would say to be about 3'3 over his pole. How would a different pole length and pole weight without the vaulter having the right technique of getting up so the pole can throw him effect the height of the vaulter?

[ADTF Academy]

Well First off we would need to know what pole Spencer was on and what was his hand hold on that pole. Than you subtract 8" from that and you have his flyaway.

A good flyaway will depend on the length of pole your using. The longer the pole the better the flyaway should be for the simple fact you have more time to cover the pole before it finishes straightening.

The challenge is and the secret in a way is in the top arm pulling action. To many think this is what causes the flyaway. In reality if you can keep your top hand as close to your body as possible and stay in line with the pole cord the energy left it the pole (potential energy) is what launches you.

Simple test do a handstand. Next perform a pushup from this position. How far off the ground can you thrust yourself. If you can't raise 6 inches you can't do anythign to help the flyaway.

All you can do is lessen it by letting the top arm get away from you. Stay tight and cover the pole and it will provide a larger flyaway with no other improvements to your technique on the earlier segments


What do I personal feel are good flyaways.

17'4" Hand Hold = 4 feet 3" flyaway = 20'11" Clearance
17' Hand Hold = 4 feet 0" flyaway = 20'4" Clearance
16'5" hand hold = 3 feet 9" flyaway = 19'6" Clearance
16' hand hold = 3 feet 6" flyaway = 18'10" Clearance
15'7" hand hold = 3 feet 3" flyaway = 18'2" Clearance
15'1' hand hold = 3 feet 0" flyaway = 17'5" Clearance
14'7" hand hold = 2 feet 9" flyaway = 16"8" Clearance
14'1" hand hold = 2 feet 6" flyaway = 15'11" Clearance
13'7" hand hold = 2 feet 3" flyaway = 15'2" Clearance
13'1" hand hold = 2 foot 0" flyaway = 14'5" Clearance
12'7" hand hold = 1 feet 9' flyaway = 13'8" Clearance


Anything you can above these heights on such a hand hold is an added bonus. Figuring out how with the technique your using is the issue. Improve your technique. In the end the final goal is to cause rotation in the pole cord so that it rotates past vertical and to find a way to rotate not only the pole but yourself in a way that you can cover the pole before it straightens completely. Till the next generation of vaulters figures this out. Once again Bubka is safe cause I doubt see anyone getting on as big of sticks as he did in the near future. I could be wrong though I don't know every vaulter that is out there. I hope someone does it soon so everyone stop dropping the jaw in awe. Great vaulter, but not perfect.

[polevaulter08nw]

ok last pole i heard spencer was on was a 14'9 190 and holding at 14'6 in another thread at his other clearence of 17'3. Now im using around 14 foot poles, but having the higher hand hold doesn't always mean im jumping higher. My favorite pole right now is a 14'3 155 altius and im 135, but im only getting maybe a 6 inch top to a foot, is this because i am letting my arm away or does the pole weight have an affect as well, say haveing a 190 pole such as spencer if i could get on one, would that throw me more, if i could line up correctly, rather than a 155? I think the bends would be the same if i could get on both yet from different runs, yet then i have more energy going into the 190!? i think ill start a new thread talking about pole weights and being thrown off the pole, cause this doesn't really go here. thanks

[dj]

good morning

first i'm not of the opinion that the pole "throws' you and gives you any "blow"..

i feel if vaulters keep thinking this way they will never reach their potential..

next i did some math concerning pole bend and the cord radius..

ie.. bell grips 16-4 and bends the pole 28%.. the cord shortens to 11'9"
so he has a radius of 11'9" to rotate to vertical, while and before the pole lenghtens back out........

bubka grips 16'10" and bends the pole 30%.. the cord shortens to 11'10"
so he has a radius of 11'10" to rotate to vertical..

this means the amount of swing energy needed to rotate the poles will be very much the same...

but when the poles become stright bubka is 6" higher...

does this explain the advantage of bending more??, to a point of course..

a vaulters speed is used to grip higher of course, but the majority of the horizontal velocity is to bend the pole..

if bubka used too stiff of a pole and only bent it 28%... the cord would have only bent to 12'1".. not short enough for him to swing to vertical.. making him come up short and on top of the bar or in the box..

later

dj

[ADTF Academy]

first i'm not of the opinion that the pole "throws' you and gives you any "blow"..

i feel if vaulters keep thinking this way they will never reach their potential..


dj

The potential energy is what throws you, that was stored in the pole as strain energy which came from the approach and plant which the vaulter stored as Kinetic Energy. I agree the pole doesn't throw you persay. It is simply the tool you use to take the energy from ground level to hand hold level up in the air and use it to sail/fly (for use of better words).

But in order to receive all of the potential energy efficiently you need to stay as close to the pole cord on top of the pole as you cover it before it straightens out completely. IF this is acheived you will receive all the potential energy that is remaining that your body uses during its flyaway.

I agree 100% with what your saying DJ in terms of reducing the pole cord to allow easier rotation into the pits. However,

My only point about your second point in terms of the pole cord reducign to 11'9" is that why that small of a pole cord. If you can easily rotate let's say a 12'6" pole cord and still swing fast enough to cover the pole why shorten the pole cord to lets say 11'10".

I am currently working with a Biochemist to attempt to determine if the smaller the pole cord the better or is the proper pole cord length. Meaning should the aim be to shorten the pole as much as possible or shorten it to an ideal length for your swing ability.

I am leaning towards the later. If you can figure out based on your technique that you can rotate a certain pole cord length of lets say 12' and still swing fast enough to cover it why shorten it any further.

As the strain in the pole is increased it must lengthen even quicker. If your trying to cover the pole and use the potential energy I dont' see how this is wanted. The quicker it lengthens the quicker you must swing the harder it is to cover the pole before it straightens. Therefore you must use a softer pole that won't shorten with as much velocity. One the other hand if you don't bend it as much the lengthening velocity will not be as great and the pole will do more of the work on its own and not use as much of the energy you stored in it to straighten.

The straightening process uses energy and it must get it from somewhere. The only energy available is the energy you put into the pole at the plant. If the pole is bent significantly it must use more of your energy to unbend. IF there is not enough energy present the pole snaps and it can't lengthen out completely.

[dj]

The following conversation took place recently between wacky and i.. thought I would share…..

[quote]wacky274: so you believe in a larger bend?

dj: I believe in maximizing the bend.... but if you create a big bend by stretching the steps and sitting on the pole ...it is not a good thing.. the big bend, 30%, should come from a good "upâ€Â

[master]

dj, is that 1.45 seconds the time from "toe off the ground" to "pole release"?
- master

[dj]

hey

that is extended toe... or just as the swing starts.... to maximum height of the body mass..

Q.. how does a gymnast create the energy to do a giant?

i'm of the opinion that the swing speed combined with the swing radius gives you the "height above grip"

look at my chart.. i think it is about 11-6 / 12 feet before the vaulter has the "momentum" to swing above their grip...

now this does not mean a highly skilled vaulter can't hold the grips on my chart and vault higher than the "average' for that grip..

earl bell had one of the highest vaults with an 11' grip on a stiff pole ever.. mike cotton was next..

what it means is when a vaulter is close to their maximum grip my "charted' jumps for that grip are averages...

again tim mack jumped 5.90 with a 16-4 grip.... that is better than the chart.. because he had a great swing and one that most vaulters don't know how to do.....

but we "swing" from the pole.. and do not get "tossed" "blow" "air" from a catapult... bubka swung himself from the top of the pole... just as a gymnast does high bar swings... releases.. goes 4/5 feet above the bar..or more.. before re-gripping and finishing the trick.

later

dj

[polevaulter08nw]

that would be ugly! haha but so having a bigger bend gives your more time and if you can utalize it well, such as tim mack, then the averages for height over grip really would raise if everyone knew this and practiced on it! wow this really helps!