BTB

[lonestar]

thanks for that link it explained a lot.

agapit, in that link you talk about pulling to accelerate the rotation, but altius talks about pushing to accelerate the rotation, are you guys talking about the same thing or do you disagree on this?

thanks

Good question - there is a little confusion generated there. Agapit should be the one to answer it, but I'll throw in my interpretation.

If I'm understanding it right, there should be continuous "pushing" pressure upwards throughout the vault with the TOP/RIGHT hand, but "pulling" pressure downward with the BOTTOM/LEFT hand to accelerate the swing and get ahead of the pole. Think of your arm action in inverting on a rope - the top arm is straight, but the bottom arm is close to your body pulling downwards. He talks about the left/bottom arm action as never pushing on the pole, but chasing the pole as it bends away off the top hand as a compensatory reaction, but in Bubka's 6.01 video http://www.stabhoch.com/movies/19970801_Bubka_601.mov the left arm drags over his head after takeoff(which I've heard called 'the pocket" or "chest penetration" but that Agapit seems to disagree with due to the passive phase it creates and its interruption in natural swing momentum), but as the pole bends away, it may appear that he's pushing with the left arm but as I believe Altius terms it, he is "chasing" the pole with the left arm, simply letting it go for the ride until his back is near horizontal - at that point I think you can clearly see him pull on that left arm to increase the speed of his rotation in his swing and get ahead of the pole. I don't believe he ever really pulls with his right arm as this would kill pole speed and reduce penetration into the pit. Push with the right, pull with the left as I read it. What do the experts say? Agapit? Altius? Bubba? DJ?

[MadeinTaiwan]

i kinda get what you mean and i dont mean pushing as in blocking with the left arm i mean like bowling a cricket ball or or doing a kip.

it just seems to me pulling with the left arm would take energy out of the system?

[altius]

Congratulations on reading BTB closely enough to pick out a crucial issue.
However you will have to remind me where I indicated in BTB that you should push up with the arms when you want to invert - i cant remember ever saying or writing that. What i do emphasise is the need to keep driving the hands high, up through the pole after take off, before the whipping swing around the top hand takes over. You then redirect the energy of that swing as suggested below.

I think all of this discussion can be resolved if you think of yourself as always vaulting on a straight pole as i suggest in the book. With this in mind take lots of jumps from 6 -8 steps with a progressively raised bar. i think you will find that your body will sort out what to do without conscious thought -which incidentally can get in the way! Note what Agapit said about swinging up on a rope - same idea as stiff pole. Because of all the variables -tiny but still with an effect on the vault - before you try to invert, i suggest in BTB this phase becomes INTUITIVE as the brain/body tries to feed in, assess and respond to all of those variables.

However have a look at the notion of FIXING the body position when it 'breaks' after passing the chord( the biomechanical pole ) of the flexing pole. Mecham saw what happened and described it accurately above, when an athlete did this on a high bar at the Nampa camp.

This is all in haste as I have pressing issues to deal with at present.
Thanks for the clarification Lonestar - it all helps folk understand a complex issue. Al

[Bubba PV]

My talks with Altius and Lonestar indicate that at all costs you are always trying to press both hands toward the bar. Even when the force hits your hands and you have the tendency and ability to grip and pull, keep pushing your hands toward the bar. Alan even pointed out the spot in BTB that covered this topic and noted that Bubka had made the same comment elsewhere.

If you took a straight pole and stood next to wall with chalk in your grip hands and drew the path of your hands on the wall, you could tell where the pole is trying to go. This may be an oversimplification but it's the easiest basic concept to grasp and then add on to.

As Altius suggests, jumping on a stiff pole from a short run will tell you very quickly that the most efficient way to jump and find a natural swing is "chase" the path your hands are trying to go. I tremendously respect both of these guys (and of course Agapit) so forgive me for "dumbing it down" so I can understand it. j/k. Have fun and I hope this helps a little. Bubba

[MadeinTaiwan]

thanks i think i am staarting to get what everyone means.

altius, my origional question came from the fact that in your book you talked a lot about the movment of the hands at take off(fowards and up) and you also talk a lot about a powerful swing around the top hand but then after the completion of the swing you did not talk much about the role of the hands during the rotation to cover the pole, i am guessing this is because you wanted to emphasize the importance of a good take of and swing as well as avoid any confusion that might lead readers to confuse what you were talking about with the old "american" style of "pole bending" by pushing the left arm.

i think i have got it, the right hand is always pushing and straight until the point where you complete the "bubka" move on top of the pole, and the left arm is used to maintain a rigid body throughout the takeoff and create room for the "chest drive"and then used to aid the rotation after the completion of the swing, but is somewhat passive during the swing and just chases the pole.

one last question, something i see a lot and am also quilty of myself, is that often people who pull with their left hand in order to aid the rotation also find that they complete the turn of the body to early and therefore never get to use the shoulder drop hip thrust move effectivly and find themsevles going over the bar at a right angle to the pole as opposed to parrell to it. other than narrow grip straight pole jumps are there any other drills to train it so that the pulling of the left hand during rotation leds to a position covering the pole ready for an effective "bubka" and does not lead to an early turning of the body?

thanks for everyones input it is greatly appreciated!

[altius]

Great job Bubba!

MiT - my message is dont keep looking for CUES to help you do the right thing. let your body find out for itself how to resolve the problem it faces. I have indicated that at a certain point the vaulter moves intuitively. My definition of intuitive is "The distilled essence of past experience". In the vault this past experience comes from doing hundreds of short approach jumps both stiff and flexible poles.

That said the notion of fixing the body through muscle tension after you break at the hips is easy to feel on the high bar and i believe easy to transfer to the vault - then you are covering the pole and ready for the hip drive/shoulder drop. I have some stills which could show this but some are already in the book -look for the sequence of Lauren Eley and remember she had only been jumping two years when the film was taken.

[agapit]

After takeoff foot leaves the ground one ABSOLUTELY cannot push the pole with arms towards the bar. Only four actions with arms are possible after takeoff.

1. Let arms go pass the head. This happens in cases where the grip is at maximum and some errors occurred during the plant/takeoff. In some form this present in every jump. The more errors the more it is pronounced.
2. Push with the left arm against the pole transferring the run up swing energy into the pole bend. Bad vaulting. You are wasting your time.
3. Row with your arms. This shortens the swing (into pocket) and is not very effective since muscles responsible for the actions are week(er).
4. Pull with left and right arms like of the rope or a gymnastic bar. Only very few fiberglass vaulters could ever do this, because it seems counter intuitive. However, once they do it they never go back to the #2 or #3 ever. #4 action does not lead to the shortening of the swing as the #3 does and is much more powerful compare to #3 because groups of muscles that participate in the action.

It is counter intuitive, but think what would prevent you from pulling to accelerate your swing while keeping it long (more energy generation). Afterall you can never get inverted by rowing on the rope or a gymnastic bar, so why do it on the pole.

Bubka pulls (in his mind arms right away), however there are unintended side effects such as bending pole, that creates that “chasing actionâ€Â

[lonestar]

[quote="agapit"]After takeoff foot leaves the ground one ABSOLUTELY cannot push the pole with arms towards the bar...

4. Pull with left and right arms like of the rope or a gymnastic bar. Only very few fiberglass vaulters could ever do this, because it seems counter intuitive. However, once they do it they never go back to the #2 or #3 ever. #4 action does not lead to the shortening of the swing as the #3 does and is much more powerful compare to #3 because groups of muscles that participate in the action.

It is counter intuitive, but think what would prevent you from pulling to accelerate your swing while keeping it long (more energy generation). Afterall you can never get inverted by rowing on the rope or a gymnastic bar, so why do it on the pole.

Bubka pulls (in his mind arms right away), however there are unintended side effects such as bending pole, that creates that “chasing actionâ€Â

[Bubba PV]

I'm lost, but that's not too unusual. Bubba

[agapit]

[quote="lonestar"][quote="agapit"]After takeoff foot leaves the ground one ABSOLUTELY cannot push the pole with arms towards the bar...

4. Pull with left and right arms like of the rope or a gymnastic bar. Only very few fiberglass vaulters could ever do this, because it seems counter intuitive. However, once they do it they never go back to the #2 or #3 ever. #4 action does not lead to the shortening of the swing as the #3 does and is much more powerful compare to #3 because groups of muscles that participate in the action.

It is counter intuitive, but think what would prevent you from pulling to accelerate your swing while keeping it long (more energy generation). Afterall you can never get inverted by rowing on the rope or a gymnastic bar, so why do it on the pole.

Bubka pulls (in his mind arms right away), however there are unintended side effects such as bending pole, that creates that “chasing actionâ€Â

[agapit]

The key to the successful inversion is the delay between the time when foot leaves the ground and the beginning of the left arm pull, if a vaulter is pulling at all and not pushing or rowing.

The problem is, as I mentioned earlier that the more perfect the plant takeoff is, the less chest penetration and therefore left arm passage behind the head and the earlier the pull could begin. However, in most successful attempts the athlete would perceive the pull immediately from the takeoff, although on the film it is never the case.

If you just say OK I could accept this view for an hour and look at every elite vaulter from this point of view you will see the difference I am talking about. Just look at the left arm action in relation to the takeoff and nothing else.

Now we are talking about the need and another "secret" purpose for a free takeoff.

Remember you have heard this first here.

Cheers.

[altius]

Just a thought - perhaps from left field!! . Is a batter in baseball thinking about what his hands are doing as he tries to put a ninety five mile an hour fast ball out of the stadium??