How high could Bubka have vaulted?

[Laurens]

Bubka was a great vaulter and could have jumped higher than the 6.15m he officially jumped. I was fortunate enough to be in that same competition in Donetsk back in 1993 where this WR was set. My coach was also present and has the jump on video. bubka touched the bar and would it have stayed up there with the new rules? I don´t know and we will never know!
And yes Petrov might have said that Bubka jumped 21 feet in training sessions....I jumped a pb in training too...doesn´t count.
I also had the opportunity to train with Bubka in Donetsk in 1993 and Petrov wasn´t coaching him anymore. Makes one wonder why? Bubka had 2 other coaches at that time.
And yes Bubka alone wasn´t responsible for introducing the new rules in pole vault, but he had an important vote in this whole matter. And from what I have heard from vaulters that confronted him with this he didn´t say no to the new rules.
I really admire Bubka´s career as a pole vaulter and a little less being on the IAAF-board. A lot of world class vaulters do think he found a way to protect his world record a little longer. But we all know that 6.15m is going to be broken in the future, even with the new rules. And the Americans have taken the lead last year in this pursuit.
Fortunately it looks like Isinbajeva realises that it is nice to make lots of money, but also to make the ultimate jump in her career some day.

[altius]

To Laurens, Nice to see a response based on some hard facts not ignorance or malice. However you may be interested in the following thoughts.
I am not sure if I have seen the WR Bubka set in Donetsk you refer to -there have been so many! However I have seen him jump and watched many videos of him - amazingly i have never seen him hit a bar - certainly not on his final wr in Sestriere or on the classic jump in Athens. This would make a nice little research project for a sports science student with an interest in the vault -get every piece of film you can and see how many times he did actually touch the bar - then we might have some REAL facts about this issue.

Re what he could have jumped. I am convinced from talking with him and Vitaly that if he had not been injured he would have cut loose after Athens. On this issue I would go so far as to say that anyone who has looked at the film and does not believe he could have pushed the wr much much higher in a short period after 97 has not seriously studied the event.

Have any the folks who believe Bubka had anything to do with the pegs being shortened considered the real reason this happened? The sport at the top level is increasingly driven by meet promoters and by television -neither a particualrly interested in what is best for the sport - they certainly are only interested in the money! The fact is that the vault can be a very drawn out event and it is increasingly difficult to fit it into the major money meets which are being shortened all the time with some events being dropped completely - how would you like to be an elite female hammer thrower or shot putter looking to make a dollar??

One way to cut down time is to reduce the number of competitiors -would vaulters be happy with that? Another is to push up entry standards - as it is standards for entry to the major events are continually rising and it is more and more difficult for 'ordinary' guys ie 5.60 and below, to get into meets. Are vaulters happy with that. Another way was to cut down the time allowance -they did that - has it it had a major impact -i doubt it.

Re putting the bar back after it has been knocked off . Surely that has nothing to do with the skill of pole vaulting - why should it ever have been allowed? Or is the poblem that the American vaulters had become very good at 'Voltzing'?

Re Bubka leaving Petrov. There were no suspicious circumstances. The fact is that great coach though he is , Petrov is a VERY hard taskmaster who can at times take athletes close to physical and mental breakdown. Anyone who has seen him coaching in Formia or at a major meet can verify that statement. As can often happen the situation got out of hand and a split occurred. However it is important to note that they have a great relationship and I would go so far as to say that Bubka regards Vitally as a father.

Incidentally i wonder how much bile will flow if - probably when - Bubka becomes President of the IAAF or even the IOC??

Oh by the way Vault Ninja I have seen film of you jumping so I can understand why you are so bitter and twisted re Bubka. All I can say is that if you really do want to clear 5.80 - and avoid serious injury at the same time - you should revisit Bubka's technical model and start rebuilding your own for otherwise i doubt you will ever achieve your aim - even if hell freezes over.

[SlickVT]

May I remind everyone that the topic name is "How High COULD Bubka Have Vaulted?"

Its opinion based, so saying they think he could have jumped higher than 6.14 is OK in my book.

Its a forum, lets all lighten up a bit. Its summer time, the livin's easy...

[rainbowgirl28]

One way to cut down time is to reduce the number of competitiors -would vaulters be happy with that? Another is to push up entry standards - as it is standards for entry to the major events are continually rising and it is more and more difficult for 'ordinary' guys ie 5.60 and below, to get into meets. Are vaulters happy with that. Another way was to cut down the time allowance -they did that - has it it had a major impact -i doubt it.

Umm I for one would rather see meets have smaller fields than shorter pegs. If a meet director wants to make sure a meet runs quickly, they need a large, able bodied pit crew. They could also raise the bar in larger increments at first.

[izzystikchik]

Well....here's my 2 cents....and its probably been stated a trillion times but here it goes...

We can sit here all day and guess and study and calculate, but everything is debatable when it isn't official. I agree its kinda neat to pick the brain, so to speak, about this little "maybe" topic.

But, all this speculation should remain just speculation, to ease the ever questioning mind, matters like this should just be left up in the air.

If it isn't a cross bar then it isn't a record unfortunately

[cougarscoach]

VaultNInja

I also have the opinion that Bubka could have jumped 6.30 to 6.40. Yes, it is just an opinion. What can not be denied is how magical it must have been to be the man himself. His athletic ability, combined with his determination and grit, while being a true sportsman, were the catalyst for his overwhelming success. However, as he has told many people (including altius) he believed that it was his technical model that allowed him to jump such heights and on such regular occasions over more than a decade. I don’t worry about the money that he made or the new rule changes. My goal has been to learn as much as possible about the Petrov/Bubka technical model and try and apply it to other vaulters. So, regarding the topic of this forum “how high could Bubka have jumped,â€Â

[roger/over]

Who knows how high Warmerdam might have vaulted, except for the slight inconvenience of World War II interrupting his career? Who knows, or who cares, how high Bubka might have vaulted, except for the self-imposed inconvenience of having to exchange opportunities for dollars?

Since "altius," whomever that might be, has already leveled against me his ultimate sanction of being a "poppy-cutter," I'm fearful of contributing to this thread other than in this way:

Much earlier in the thread, "vaultwest-PV Dweeb" wrote that, "as I remember it, I never saw Bubka put his hand on any bar . . . " Maybe he should check out Bubka's Hall of Fame photo on page 128ff of the ATFS Athletics 2001 edition. Well, maybe that's not so much steadying the bar as cuddling it.

[altius]

To Laurens, Nice to see a response based on some hard facts not ignorance or malice. However you may be interested in the following thoughts.
I am not sure if I have seen the WR Bubka set in Donetsk you refer to -there have been so many! However I have seen him jump and watched many videos of him - amazingly i have never seen him hit a bar - certainly not on his final wr in Sestriere or on the classic jump in Athens. This would make a nice littel research project for a sports science student with an interest in the vault -get every piece of film you can and see how many times he did actually touch the bar - then we might have some REAL facts about this issue.

Re what he could have jumped. I am convinced from talking with him and Vitaly that if he had not been injured he would have cut loose after Athens. On this issue I would go so far as to say that anyone who has looked at the film and does not believe he could have pushed the wr much much higher in a short period after 97 has not seriously studied the event.

Have any the folks who believe Bubka had anything to do with the pegs being shortened considered the real reason this happened? The sport at the top level is increasingly driven by meet promoters and by television -neither a particualrly interested in what is best for the sport - they certainly are only interested in the money! The fact is that the vault can be a very drawn out event and it is increasingly difficult to fit it into the major money meets which are being shortened all the time with some events being dropped completely - how would you like to be an elite female hammer thrower or shot putter looking to make a dollar??

One way to cut down time is to reduce the number of competitiors -would vaulters be happy with that? Another is to push up entry standards - as it is standards for entry to the major events are continually rising and it is more and more difficult for 'ordinary' guys ie 5.60 and below, to get into meets. Are vaulters happy with that. Another way was to cut down the time allowance -they did that - has it it had a major impact -i doubt it.

Re putting the bar back after it has been knocked off . Surely that has nothing to do with the skill of pole vaulting - why should it ever have been allowed? Or is the problem that the American vaulters had become very good at 'Voltzing'?

Re Bubka leaving Petrov. There were no suspicious circumstances. The fact is that great coach though he is , Petrov is a VERY hard taskmaster who can at times take athletes close to physical and mental breakdown. Anyone who has seen him coaching in Formia or at a major meet can verify that statement. As can often happen the situation got out of hand and a split occurred. However it is important to note that they have a great relationship and I would go so far as to say that Bubka regards Vitally as a father.

Oh by the way Vault Ninja I have seen film of you jumping so I can understand why you are so bitter and twisted re Bubka. All I can say is that if you really do want to clear 5.80 - you should revisit Bubka's technical model and start rebuilding your own for otherwise i doubt you will ever achieve your aim -even if hell freezes over.

[VaultNinja]

To Laurens, Nice to see a response based on some hard facts not ignorance or malice.

Oh by the way Vault Ninja I have seen film of you jumping so I can understand why you are so bitter and twisted re Bubka. All I can say is that if you really do want to clear 5.80 - and avoid serious injury at the same time - you should revisit Bubka's technical model and start rebuilding your own for otherwise i doubt you will ever achieve your aim - even if hell freezes over.

Malice: def: 1. A desire to harm others or to see others suffer; extreme ill will or spite.
2. Law. The intent, without just cause or reason, to commit a wrongful act that will result in harm to another.

Myself and others don't feel that I have said anything "twisted"about Bubka, bitter.....Maybe. Sorry again to those I offended.

Altius,
Maybe you should take some of your own advice. That was pretty cold what you said. I only hope that you were joking. If you take pleasure in your attacks on others you may get to witness hell in its icy state first hand.
Its seems as if your book has brought hope and inspiration to others, and may be playing a part in the evolution of the event. Don't throw away a good reputation by attacking someone as meaningless in the sceme of things, as me.

- I think Bubka could have jumped higher if he wanted too, but he didn't, or he waited to long I guess.

[USMC Vaulter]

Alright - I don't particularly like arguments, or adding fuel to any fire - but I've got a few problems with what both sides of this argument are saying.

First off:
What someone is capable of doing in competition (which is what this argument appears to be about) DOES NOT only have to do with their physical capabilities.
Its no argument in my mind that Bubka was physically capable of jumping higher than 6.15 meters - but the man is who he is, and his decisions in life were his decisions. So you're answer to 'how high could Bubka have jumped?' - in this world, its 6.15 meters. Now thats a phenomenal and almost ridiculous accomplishment - and I don't diminish it in any way.

But here's my point. You have to look at the facts and what makes up an athlete. It has to do with their physical and mental state and what drives them.

Bubka was content to increase the record a centimeter at a time and gain financial security - there's nothing wrong with that - THAT'S WHO HE WAS, thats what he did, and when his body gave out, LIKE ALL ATHLETES BODIES WILL, his record stood at 6.15. So once again in this lifetime, on this planet, the highest Bubka could have jumped in a competition is 6.15 meters. You can play with hypotheticals all day long, but you can't answer a hypothetical with more hypotheticals - that gets you nowhere - you have to deal with facts.

Lance Armstrong is retiring this year as one of the greatest cyclists of all time with 7 straight Tour De France wins - and I'm sure a topic like this will arise on some cycling forum - "how many tours could Lance have won?" The answer is 7, because thats when he decided to stop. The body doesn't do ANYTHING as complex as a sport without the minds involvement and participation. His mind has decided to stop. I dont think anyone would argue that when it comes down to it, the MIND is what makes the spectacular accomplishments of the body actually possible (which is something you see very often in the military actually - so I can easily relate) - if the mind isn't driving the body, isn't pushing it to do the incredible, then the incredible won't happen.

So basically the topic wasn't specific enough because various people interpreted it differently. So again, here's my take on it:

How high was Bubka PHYSICALLY CAPABLE OF JUMPING had he not held back?
Who knows - 6.40 meters? Maybe higher. - I don't put that height past him at all. This hypothetical can be easily supported by fact, because all other variables are removed and the evidence and facts put forward by the members of this board in previous posts is good enough to sell me or basically anyone else on this answer. (which is probably the way that this whole topic was meant to go)

How high was Bubka capable of jumping?
The answer is - exactly how high he DID jump. A body is only capable of what the mind wills and allows it to do. And thats only as long as the body is capable of performing at that level. With all the variables taken in - Bubka jumped 6.15, so thats where he stands. (this is probably what VaultNinja was answering)

And now my last 2 cents:
VaultNinja, just keep doing your own thing, you do come across as an a$$ sometimes - but its just how you state your piece - haha - I enjoy reading your posts

Mr. Launder, I greatly respect you and I'm personally sold on the Petrov model and look forward to training harder and trying to master more of it once I'm done serving in the military and can find the time. I also coach it as best as I can to my athletes - however I don't agree with you constantly downing 'American pole vaulting'. If anything you should be concerned with the state of vaulting in the entire world (atleast on the male side). Sure there are a lot of problems (especially when you're talking about a country as large and diversified as ours is), but if you look at the international standings, we're either right up there with everyone else, or ABOVE THEM. So maybe you shouldn't be so country specific about your remarks. I'm sure if all the other countries were jumping higher than us using a different model than our vaulters - things would change pretty rapidly and your point would be much easier taken. But thats currently not the case. So as I see it, your problem is with the state of the entire sport, not just 'American vaulting'. No matter how you look at it, no one from any country has broken or come close to Bubkas record.

Just some food for thought for everyone.

[altius]

USMC - I can assure you that the respect goes both ways. As one who servd my country in a dangerous place a long time ago in what seems like a galaxy far far away, I can imagine the challenges you face trying to be an athlete.

On that basis I will put it all out before you. I believe that the country most at risk of seeing the pole vault vanish is the USA. With a litigenous society like yours it will take only one or two more accidents to see many states ban the event at high school level - this despite the efforts of dedicated folk like Jan Johnson. The process will then be like dominoes falling. As i recall, it was a close run thing in a couple of States two years ago. If the vault falls away in the US what chance has the event got. I know Steve Chappell was immensely concerned about this issue -as would anyone interested in this great event would be.

So what is my concern. Well like any coach I watch athletes pretty carefully and in many recent trips to the US I have noted that there are common technical weaknesses which can -and most likely will - lead to injury. They will certainly minimise an athletes potential. What is also clear to me is that many athletes and coaches still will not seriously consider - far less take on board - the Petrov/Bubka model. The debate about Bubka and what he could have jumped is, I believe, part of this issue and part of the problem. As I have said elsewhere on this forum, while 6.15 is great it seems and is gettable, but 6.40 would have forced everyone to really look closely at what he did - and there would then be no prevarication about taking up this model of vaulting. That is why I believe what he COULD have jumped is important.

The problem is that while vault coaching is relatively tightly controlled around much of the rest of the world, almost anyone can put up their shingle in the US and become a coach. If they are then lucky enough to find a very talented athlete early on who wins a State title, they then assume the status of expert. This in turn means that they tend to attract more talented athletes no matter what model -if any - they are teaching.

This is why i am especially concerned about the US because as I said on the stage of the Reno Hilton earlier this year, i am truly am an internationalist - and not just in the pole vault. I have many friends in the country, I have visited it more than once a year for several years and have probably seen more of it that 99% of all Americans!

My response to this issue in several different places on PVP reflects the irritation of an old man who can see problems ahead but can do nothing to stop the train wreck. All I know is that spending time chopping Bubka down will not solve the problems I have alluded to above.

To vaultninja. I apologise unreservedly but will only let you off the hook if you look seriously at the Bubka model!. You are obviously an enthusiatic vaulter who loves what he is doing. However I was deadly serious in my analysis of your technique -and i can assure you - deadly accurate. Post video of your jumps on this forum and let other coaches determine if my assessment is accurate.

Just a final note- there is a young French vaulter who jumped 5.75 last year -not too bad! Well he has made a decision to move to the Petrov/Bubka model as soon as this season is finished because he wants to find out how high HE can really jump.

"It does not matter which way the wind is blowing if you dont know what port you are sailing to." Seneca BC?

[Bubba PV]

Good point, and nice "Sublime" reference! It's on my MP3 now. Bubba