640 Model Framework: Height Clearance

[agapit]

P.S. altius, I know you saw bubka jump in person on multiple occasions, but I have never seen him grip at 5.17 in any film or picture I have ever seen of him. In every single one, he was holding more like 8-10 cm from the top of the pole than 3. On a 5.20 pole, that would put his grip at 5.10 to 5.12m. Many of the clips and pictures I am talking about are from his prime in the early 90s.

Actually in practice Bubka used grip as high as 5.27m (to my knowledge), but he has found it difficult to perform consistently on such a high grip and he has abandoned further grip development, later Petrov though it to be one of the big mistakes.

I do not know if Steve Chappell made 5.30 poles for Bubka, but there are 5.30 poles and even longer you know.

And yes I have seen 6.40 jumps.

[altius]

At the clinic in Jamaica in 2002 I suggested to Bubka that the 6.01 clearance in Athens would have cleared 6.30 -and if you look at the photograph on the back of BTB -or even the ghost image on the front cover - i do not think that is unreasonable. However like you I suspect, I had no scientific evidence to back up my opinion.

Bubka replied -with a huge smile across his face - and to a large audience note - that japanese sports scientists had calculated that he would have cleared 6.40 on that jump -and as i indicated 6.34 and 6.32 on other jumps. Now I cannot believe that Bubka would not make that claim if it was not accurate - after all unlike a lot of folk, he hardly needs to talk the talk - he has walked the walk - or should i say jumped the jump - better than anyone in the history of the event.

I have no trouble believing it because i have seen him jump a few times - but in addition Petrov told me in 1985 that Sergey was already clearing 6.20 in training on a regular basis. Being the perfectionist that Petrov is, he has always been disappointed that Bubka did not just go as high as he could every time he jumped.!

For me the saddest thing about his career is that the need to provide a future for his family along with injury, combined to stop him fulfilling his real potential. If he had doen that we would see and hear a lot less about "it was only because he was a super talent" - and a recognition - perhaps still a grudging recognition in the USA - that he jumped high because of how he jumped not merely because of who he was. 6.15 OK that just takes special talent but 6.40!!! - hey we had better take a serious look at this.

Instead Toby - great athlete though he is - does not provide the model your talented young vaulters need. Nor will he in my opinion until he stops trying to 'find how I can jump like me" - if that is an accurate quote and starts to jump like Bubka.

Folk might ask - if the secret was in 'the' technique why did not Tarasov jump higher and why has markov not jumped higher -than 6.05 note. Well in both cases injury has impacted on their careers and in both cases small but important technical problems have held them back. Stop thinking that 6.00 is really high! Bubka jumped that in 1985 -20 years ago for goodness sake and several athletes with obvious technical deficiencies have jumped it since.

I am not going down this path any more -It clearly has become a case of the believers versus the unbelievers and we can see where that attitude has got the 'real' world. Im outa here as they say. Sort this one out among yourselves.

[agapit]

Folk might ask - if the secret was in 'the' technique why did not Tarasov jump higher and why has markov not jumped higher -than 6.05 note.

I have seen all Top 20 World vaulters jump live in the last 25 years. In my opinion no one except Bubka have used the modern model on the fiberglass. Tarasov had used parts of it, but he did not have the whole concept.

LoJo came close to it. I would say he was the closest, but for various life reasons it did not translate into 20'+ jumps. Since 1996 he attempted 6.00 only twice (once at the US outdoor championship 1997 and once in Knoxville in 2001 where he went over the bar but failed touching the bar with his hand) all other attempts were 6.05, 6.10 or even 6.15 after 5.90-5.95 clearances. We did not think that 6m was a big deal 20' and 6.15 were.

[mikepv1]

I have seen all Top 20 World vaulters jump live in the last 25 years. In my opinion no one except Bubka have used the modern model on the fiberglass. Tarasov had used parts of it, but he did not have the whole concept.

Yeah, I was thinking that Tarasov and Markov didn't really use the top part of the model. Markov looks like he strays earlier in the vault than did Tarasov.

As for Lawrence Johnson, it looks like he had a tendency to come down on the bar. I don't know why that is, but his jumps look awesome until he gets to the top. By the way, is he retired?

I am not going down this path any more -It clearly has become a case of the believers versus the unbelievers and we can see where that attitude has got the 'real' world. Im outa here as they say. Sort this one out among yourselves.

That's cool. I should, however, make clear that I am a believer in the Petrov/Bubka model, and I will be getting your book whenever I have the money. (It's on a list of stuff that I am saving up for this summer.)

I know that there are 5.30m and 5.35m poles, but I also have read that Bubka mostly used 5.20m poles in competition.

Also, I wasn't saying that Bubka couldn't have jumped 6.40m. I just don't think that he would have cleared it on that particular jump. That's all I was really trying to say.

Anyways, if by being "outa here", you mean you will not be posting anymore, I am sorry to hear that, but thanks for contributing your knowledge to the forum, and best of luck.

[agapit]

As for Lawrence Johnson, it looks like he had a tendency to come down on the bar. I don't know why that is, but his jumps look awesome until he gets to the top. By the way, is he retired?

I would say he is taking a sabbatical break.

[ladyvolspvcoach]

You should ask Lawrence!! He joined the board recently.......I'll bet he's watching.....

[altius]

Mikepv1 - I meant I am not going to deal with that topic anymore. In my short time in this forum I have seen too many circular arguments which have been driven by jingosim not understanding - or even an interest in understanding. I realise that this is not the case here but I have made my point as best i can and if folk still want to disagree thats fine. After all ignorance is bliss - my old grandma used to say.

Re Tarasov and markov -I say again they were TRYING to use the same technical model but because of weaknesses in their technique they had their own STYLE which reflects those weaknesses. As i have suggested elsewhere on the forum these weaknesses - plus injuries - have cost them the chance to jump 6.10 or even 6.15 plus.

Until folk accept the notions of TECHNICAL MODEL and STYLE, and appreciate the differences between them, there will be continual pointless debate. I know the only person who "could jump like Bubka" was Bubka himself - because he was BUBKA. However a lot of jumpers can TRY to jump like Bubka and can get closer or not to that model depending on their specific abilities. I have evidence of girls jumping for less that two years - One who could take off as well as anyone anywhere and another who could almost match Bubka in the swing to inversion -in fact the comparison is shown on page 43BTB.

When you buy BTB -look at photo on back page! Note also official film of that comp states his centre of mass was at 6.50 on that jump - with the body in an inverted V this suggests the COM at 6.50m was well BELOW HIS hips at that point. Sorry i said i was outa here -I just forgot

[mikepv1]

Cool. I'll be sure to check it out.

Looking at the film of the 6.01m vault again, it might be harder than I thought to judge the height of the jump, due to the wall-eye effect of the bar cam, which makes everything appear coser to the center of the frame than it really is.

With that in mind, it is easier see how his jump might have been higher when looking at the other camera angles. Thus, you may very well be right about the height of that jump after all. My apologies for not taking the illusive effect of the bar cam into consideration earlier.

[ryansanta]

I've seen that at-bar view of that 6.01 jump and it looks a LOT higher than the one on stabhoch.

[krupat]

I've seen that at-bar view of that 6.01 jump and it looks a LOT higher than the one on stabhoch.

where can u find this video??

[Mecham]

I've seen that at-bar view of that 6.01 jump and it looks a LOT higher than the one on stabhoch.

where can u find this video??

Isnt it the one at the Stabhoch hope page in the top left corner? OR is it the one on Neo Vault?

[mikepv1]

Neovault. Starkey archives.

The little looped bar cam shot you see in the top left hand corner of the Stabhochsprung.com home page is Bubka's 5.91m jump at the same competition (1997 World Championships in Athens).

A user on here (TOMAS) has a web site with a wmv version of the 6.01 clip in two parts. (Part one is the real-time version of the clip, and part two is the slow-motion replay).

The links to the two pages with the full film of Bubka's 6.01m vault on them are listed below:

Neovault
http://www.neovault.com/mem_video_stark ... ves_p2.asp
(You'll need a Neovault membership to view this clip. I strongly recommend getting one, because there are over 100 great vault clips in the members section, all of which are in Quicktime format, which allows for forward and backward frame-by-frame analysis.)

TheVault
http://www.thepolevault.republika.pl/video.htm