Increasing the Pre-Bend on pole manufacturing?

[Bruce Caldwell]

Hey,
The pole tip looks very cool.
When do you think it will be availible for sale.

Thanks
AFter the Olympics we have them for testing now in size #4
for Earl Bells poles 15-180

[Bruce Caldwell]

Yes, cost would increase, but if it worked, the demand would increase as well, don't you think?

I wonder if it would cause a problem with pole placement apon the plant tho. wouldn't it direct it self into the box the right way, all the vaulter would have to do is make sure that the pole is held firmly and in the correct position throught the drop.
I know most vualters don't grip the pole that firm during the approach, but it would start a different style of vaulting.

Good Questions VERN keep them coming
Labor cost yes but it will weaken the hoop of the lower area of the pole.
One would plant and when the pole touched the pit due to being softer there the load would be all on the lower 1/3 of the pole. The pole will most definitely fail.
Becca is correct the plant will be more difficult due to the increased manageability of the dynamic curve.
All that a prebend or curve does is lessen the initial load on the shoulders of the plant. Something that can be done so much before other things play and take away the benefits.
We are working on Pole that is lighter in the butt and stiffer there also.

Once Nordic had such a product that was very responsive Eropean vaulters loved the poles. but the poles had 26" of spiral of carbon in the butt area and most all the poles after about 20 vaults broke right at the 26" mark from the bottom.

Load carry was too much once the pole moved the energy past this point on to "S" glass

But we have a concept that in theory will work on paper and the mandrel is here to test.
One will see within the next 4 months as to how it plays out.

Stay tuned LOL

[Russ]

Okay, on the old Skypoles, I went to my basement and checked mine - a "brand new" (i.e., never taped, never jumped) dark blue 15-150. It has a label that says "Stiffness 159" (whatever that means...Bruce, I'm thinking maybe you can fill me in on that). Jeff actually reflexed and it came out as a 20.2 (which I understand would be labeled as a 15-160 using today's calculations?). It was manufactured in Costa Mesa. If it had a 3" pre-bend once upon a time, it has lost it over the years. It only has a very slight curve now.

One huge advantage about a significant pre-bend - to me at least - is the psychological advantage. I'll have to defer to you engineers about the physical advantages, but I know that I've got a little more confidence about using my bigger poles when they've got a big pre-bend. And we all know how important the psychological aspects of this sport can be. Improved confidence often translates into improved performance.

It's like having a tail wind. Which is more important? Do we vault better with a tail wind because of the physical advantages it provides or the psychological advantages? We probably run a little more relaxed with a tail wind, which in turn makes us run better and jump on bigger poles.

Of course, it's probably a combination of physical and psychological factors that make a tail wind beneficial, and the same probably is true with a big pre-bend. Which is more important? My money is on the psychological side. Other opinions?

[Bruce Caldwell]

Okay, on the old Skypoles, I went to my basement and checked mine - a "brand new" (i.e., never taped, never jumped) dark blue 15-150. It has a label that says "Stiffness 159" (whatever that means...Bruce, I'm thinking maybe you can fill me in on that). Jeff actually reflexed and it came out as a 20.2 (which I understand would be labeled as a 15-160 using today's calculations?). It was manufactured in Costa Mesa. If it had a 3" pre-bend once upon a time, it has lost it over the years. It only has a very slight curve now.

One huge advantage about a significant pre-bend - to me at least - is the psychological advantage. I'll have to defer to you engineers about the physical advantages, but I know that I've got a little more confidence about using my bigger poles when they've got a big pre-bend. And we all know how important the psychological aspects of this sport can be. Improved confidence often translates into improved performance.

It's like having a tail wind. Which is more important? Do we vault better with a tail wind because of the physical advantages it provides or the psychological advantages? We probably run a little more relaxed with a tail wind, which in turn makes us run better and jump on bigger poles.

Of course, it's probably a combination of physical and psychological factors that make a tail wind beneficial, and the same probably is true with a big pre-bend. Which is more important? My money is on the psychological side. Other opinions?

BANANAS were the only ones with Prebends the others were natural curves.
As the poles become shorter the out of line is less. The conversation I was under assumption was about World Class poles.

Ted the engineer of Skypole explained to me that the pole when place in the flex machine drove the meter up to 159 initially after the prebend was established it was like a lighter pole at the plant but returned like a 159. At the time George Moore the Pacer/Catapole manager said it was hype. Could of been?

The poles did actually become easier to bend initially at the plant due to the prebend.

A test I once did when I owned the Thermo Flex testing Machine which had a measure of lbs on the bending machine.
I tested poles I provided to KU vaulter Terry Porter Olympian in 1976 still vaulting 15'
A non prebend skypole was a 190 test no flex read on the machine initially 225 and then the dial came back to 192
A 190 Prebend that read 204 flex read initially 204 on the machine and settled at 201. When he jumped on the 190 flex 204 it felt better and returned better than the straight pole. I had assumed that SKy pole was taking the mean of the numbers to get the flex based on the amount of prebend. Paul Richards is on here he could give us the straight scoop as to how they came up with the flex number for Bananas???
I only got the hyped version.

This was a non scientific test in my earlier days (1974)
AN other interesting test due to the curve of the pole.
I did test the poles on this machine for temperature
a pole 15-165 lbs set in the sun and measured 110 degrees read 177 initially when flexed. Ice was dropped into the pole and in an air-conditioned room to drop the pole temperature 49 degrees. The pole flexed initially on the machine 185lbs

It was determined that the natural curve of the pole had actually reduced when the pole was cooler and this was the results as in both temperatures the pole was the same butt flex number 7.5.
Conclusion temperature only affected the natural curve of the pole and a cooler pole felt stiffer due to the initial bending action, but the stiffness properties of the pole did not change.

BRUCE

[skyshark177]

I know there is E-glass, S-glass and Carbon-glass.
Is there any other's out there that are being tested which i hope are lighter to carry and have a better return?

[Bruce Caldwell]

I know there is E-glass, S-glass and Carbon-glass.
Is there any other's out there that are being tested which i hope are lighter to carry and have a better return?

YES and we use it
I blead the 5th on this one

[skyshark177]

That's cool.
Is there anything you can say about them?
Like, is it working out better?

[skyshark177]

Or are they actually in the Essx Poles?

[Bruce Caldwell]

Or are they actually in the Essx Poles?

less filling This material allows us to put in more carbon in a differrent oreintation than the other carbon pole

[skyshark177]

So, in other words, it makes the pole lighter.
That's great!
Now, does this mean that the diameter of the pole is greater? I know that a larger diameter creates a stiffer pole and better return and the opposite for the smaller diameter.
Does this mean that the new pole is larger in diameter or smaller?

I remember the first carbon's had a smaller diameter and i think seemed heavier in some poles when compared to the spirits and sky's.
I've always been a big fan of the Spirit's but i've never jumped on a carbon and I really want to feel the difference.
So many people think the carbons are alot more faster and a lighter carry.
I anxious to find out how these new poles feel like.
My coach said he tested out some new kind of pole in Indian a couple of months ago. He's from Michigan as well, and has the american record in the 55-59 age group.
He said that it felt different and actaully like it. He didn't know anything about it other than it was being tested.

[Bruce Caldwell]

You Mean India? or indiana THAt would be a nordic I think?
Yes the pole is lighter than our non carbon poles but we only use carbon as a stiffener not to speed the pole swing up. The vauter still needs a pole that times with them not one that runs off and leaves them or forces a premature pull turn. A premature pul turn wil end you way above the bar but you will have difficulty getting the penitration needed to cover the bar to the back side.

[Decamouse]

If your Coach is Matti K. - then it is the same pole he saw/had a chance to try at the Midwest Masters Regional, same pole that two different vaulters used/borrowed at Masters Nationals - the 2nd and 3rd places guys - this was a standard madrel size pole that is very light, using some new technology. He could give you the details - he ask about them at Masters Nationals where he won and looked good.

You can also make a pole lighter by going to larger mandrels - less material - but there is a point where structural integrity and ability to withstand damage is pushed to a limit -

Larger diameter makes a stiffer pole - if you maintain the same or similar wall thickness and material properties.