Video Review of Cameron Meyer

[KirkB]

The guy would like some drills to improve his son's plant/takeoff timing and you aren't helping.

Actually, I did give Tim some sound advice re the highbar takeoff drill.

Re the sand drills, I gave Tim what I felt was sound advice, but it just so happens that your opinion about them is different than mine. Viva la difference!

Out of respect for your opinion, I did not argue with you about this, as I have no objections to you discussing sand drills with him, if that's what you want to do. My only objection was your insistence in trying to argue with me about the merits of sand vaulting drills for elite (18'+) vaulters.

So just proceed with your armchair quarterbacking - I'm not stopping you.

Kirk

[grandevaulter]

Helping him jump up and thinking about it is o.k. however you missed the boat. Now you have a guy trying jump up under. Synchronizing the plant by controling excessive arm movement and rolling the right up the side ala Petrov would be a correct order.

[KirkB]

Helping him jump up and thinking about it is o.k. however you missed the boat. ...

Grandevaulter, just give whatever advice you have to Tim, and stop criticizing mine.

First of all, my advice was generic - I only said that that particular highbar drill was a good one. It was not a specific remedy for any specific flaw that I detected in Cameron's technique. I was not trying to catch that boat.

Secondly, I suggested that vaulters might appreciate the value in jumping before getting picked off by the pole by trying (or at least visualizing how) to catch a highbar when their takeoff is "in".

Now you have a guy trying to jump up under. ...

Exactly! That's why trying (or at least visualizing how) an attempt to jump up under might cause a vaulter to realize its futility!

Kirk

[grandevaulter]

Grandevaulter, just give whatever advice you have to Tim, and stop criticizing mine.

You don't mind giving orders to SFA-PA but get cranky when I imply that you are misguided in your thinking regarding elite vaulters and the sand pit drills.

Exactly! That's why trying (or at least visualizing how) an attempt to jump up under might cause a vaulter to realize its futility!

That is a backwards way of teaching but I guess anything is possible.

Working with athletes nearly every day throughout the last six years effectively teaches the coach what works and what doesn't. Sitting behind the computer and trying to impress people with knowledge is entertaining but may not be as efficient at developing as a coach.

[KirkB]

There you go with another put-down.

My point is that you should focus on giving your advice to Tim, rather than slinging personal insults in my direction. It's his thread, not yours!

Yes, I was cranky at Tim, for what I think are good reasons that were his own fault. He needs to be accountable for trying to dupe us re the tap vault.

That doesn't give you the right to try to pick a fight with me re sand vaulting.

You don't mind giving orders to SFA-PA but get cranky when I imply that you are misguided in your thinking regarding elite vaulters and the sand pit drills.

I guess you just don't get it. You think I got cranky when you said that I was misguided about elite vaulters and the sand pit drills? Not at all. I didn't complain at all when you said that.

I only got cranky when you persisted in trying to flame me about it (twice, after your initial comment about it). You can have your opinion about sand pit drills, and I can have mine. But why get nasty about it?

Here's an idea - just keep your focus on Tim's topic(s), and never mind about me.

Kirk

[SFAPoleVaultDAD]

Kirk you write

"Yes, I was cranky at Tim, for what I think are good reasons that were his own fault. He needs to be accountable for trying to dupe us re the tap vault."

Please forgive me for not knowing protocol and what to put forth in a disclaimer for video's.

I was and still am trying to learn the pole vault and this thread and website has done some wonderful things for the progression of my knowledge.

I do take some offense to your position and crankiness about the whole matter but I guess that is where you get your entertainment.

For me this has been a tool that I have shared with my son. Who I have printed out and gave him all the post.

He has taken this serious and reads them and does what he thinks is best for him and works very hard to improve his technique and knowledge.

He also helps many young vaulters in our area and he is taking the knowledge of his weakness and his strengths and using them to further the sport of pole vaulting.

Grandevaulter has been a great reference and help to me and has really helped Cameron to think about some things he needs to improve upon.

Will this make Cameron a better vaulter only time will tell but I know it has made him wiser about the sport and that I consider to be a great thing.

So Kudo's to both of you guys!!!

[KirkB]

Please forgive me for not knowing protocol and what to put forth in a disclaimer for video's.

Tim, I don't know why there should be any confusion about posting a tap vault as if it was a legal clearance, and I have no idea what your motive was to urge us to critique a fake vault. Ridiculous!

And you still haven't said when and where this occurred, or what part you played in it (or even WHY it occurred). There's really no excuse for it. I sure hope that wasn't Cameron's SFA coach tapping him, as that would have been quite irresponsible of him.

Cameron's 19' vault was not a valid vault. You knew it, and he knew it. Yet you failed to mention that on your youtube post, or in your PVP post. You should not have asked us for a critique of it, as the only critique that can possibly be given for something like that is to say that it's cheating, foolish, ill-advisable, and not the least bit cool. There are no bragging rights to be claimed for such a stunt. It's a stupid training technique that can only lead to bad habits and accidents. And by doing this, Cameron is only encouraging younger vaulters to try to do the same. At that height, it's really quite dangerous. VERY DANGEROUS! What would have happened if the tapper mis-tapped?

It's one thing to tap someone over 9 or 10 feet. But 19 feet?

You and Grandevaulter are both wrong in thinking that this is just a form of entertainment for me. I take PV very seriously, and when I critique a vid, I want to give an honest critique, to the best of my ability. So I dislike being intentionally deceived by an illegal vault. And I really cringe when I see vaulters do stupid, dangerous things (like I did back in the day).

I believe that YOU posted the vid of the tap vault for YOUR entertainment, to see what we'd all have to say about it, and to brag about your son. If not, what was your motive?

Well, after begging me to comment on it, you got your answer from me. No one else seems to care about the safety or stupidity of tap-vaulting over a 19 foot bungee. Not even Grandevaulter.

Believe me, I would much rather have given you a good critique of Cameron's technique than to feel compelled to rant about the illegality and stupidity of that tap vault.

Let's move on.

Kirk

[grandevaulter]

And you still haven't said when and where this occurred, or what part you played in it (or even WHY it occurred). There's really no excuse for it. I sure hope that wasn't Cameron's SFA coach tapping him, as that would have been quite irresponsible of him.

It is none of our business where it occurred but I have a good idea. Kirk, I don't use the tap. Can you use this as a teachable moment and be specific about the dangers of the tap?

Well, after begging me to comment on it, you got your answer from me. No one else seems to care about the safety or stupidity of tap-vaulting over a 19 foot bungee. Not even Grandevaulter.

Oh thanks Kirk for hooking stupidity and carelessness to me and my failure to assess the potential danger of tapping. So while we're at it, we may send a collective letter to Renaud and tell him to stop running over hurdles or vaulting left handed as he approaches a 17' vault.

Please also back up your claim that Sand Pit drills are juvenile and why they are not effective for elite vaulters.

Believe me, I would much rather have given you a good critique of Cameron's technique than to feel compelled to rant about the illegality and stupidity of that tap vault.

There are many readers here. I for one always seem to learn or enjoy reading your posts. Tim put up a couple other videos. Hopefully you will stop "majoring in the minors" and give us your opinion or breakdown on the "legitimate" jumps.

[KirkB]

Kirk, I don't use the tap. Can you use this as a teachable moment and be specific about the dangers of the tap?

I thought I already explained the perils of tapping. It should be obvious to anyone with any common sense at all.

Here's a few PVP threads where tapping has already been discussed ...

Thread: Please Critique - Swing Hips up and Drop Shoulders http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&f=39&p=206535

Please don't "tap" athletes to help them into the pit. Instead, drop their grip to a point where they can land in the back of the pit on their own. Tapping is a short cut that prevents athletes from learning how to move the pole to vertical, and it screws up their swing timing. It's fun for them to hold a foot higher than they otherwise would, but it's hurting their progress and it's dangerous. I know this was already mentioned to you in an earlier thread, with comments about "pushing" vs "spotting." I do not spot my athletes at all, because they ALWAYS land in the back of the pit. As a rule, the standards are always at 80cm (or farther depending on the drill), and this rule holds for all levels. Teach them to move the pole to vertical, don't do it for them.

Thread: Lots of things wrong with my vault
http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&f=39&p=205662

If I were your coach (I assume that guy tapping you is your coach), I would focus on getting your takeoff fixed, and lower your grip so that you roll the pole forwards. It's a terrible idea for him to TAP you to give you enough momentum to land in the pit. If you hit your takeoff with good (better) posture, and if you lower your grip, you will land in the pit. Tapping you is just a crutch, and doesn't really teach you how to jump off the ground with good posture or judge how much momentum you need to land in the pit.

Tapping actually makes it HARDER for you to get the feel for when you're jumping off the ground hard enough, and when your forward momentum is strong enough to reach the pit. It also doesn't give you the practice that you need to learn how to BAIL safely from a bad vault - when you have a poor takeoff or when your forwards motion is insufficient. You need to experience what a BAD vault feels like, so that you can bail safely.

The more your coach taps you, the less you will personally FEEL what YOU can (and can't) do when you takeoff, stretch, and swing.

Kirk

... two things will help you - take off in the right place - you are indeed at least two feet under - you cannot vault effectively from there and you MUST eliminate the tap from you training - it only encourages a bad take off. To put it cruelly - if you cannot jump even 11 feet without a tap find another sport because you are going to hurt your self - and in doing so you will hurt our sport. Sorry old son but them's the facts as I see them.

I understand. The tap was due to a massive headwind, but I will work without one so I can learn to safely bail.

Thread: Let's talk about box collars!
http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&f=47&p=198557

... giving the athlete a false since of security by "tapping" at takeoff leads to failure, frustration and more importantly leads to injuring and/or death.

Thread: Another reason to avoid tapping
http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=18808
The vid link is dead, but comments from 2009 PVP regulars such as:
Rainbowgirl28, VaultPurple, kcvault, KirkB, vcpvcoach, vaultman18, altius, vault3rb0y, vaultmd, starkey480, and vaultdad are still very good. I think the vid they're talking about may have been the one from this thread: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18847&hilit=tapping

Thread: 5.05 bungee from a 5 step
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=19291&hilit=tapping
Lots of good discussion about tapping (the vid link is dead here too, though).

Thread: How am I doing? 13' bungee
http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=18938&p=135751&hilit=tap#p135751

Thread: Jason Roberts 15ft
http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17353&hilit=tap

Thread: Requiring a safety course for PV coaches?
http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=18836&p=134720&hilit=+tapping#p134720

Every head coach should be made aware that practices like tapping or using too small pits can lead to DEATH and that these practices should not be tolerated.

Kirk

[grandevaulter]

Tap vaults don't impress me at all. They are a crutch and are a distraction from better, safer training methods.

Your initial warning to the world about tapping.

I thought I already explained the perils of tapping. It should be obvious to anyone with any common sense at all.

Thank you for qualifying your statement. Your first statement regarding the tap was not so crystal clear.

No one else seems to care about the safety or stupidity of tap-vaulting over a 19 foot bungee. Not even Grandevaulter.

I said that I don't use the tap nor have I researched it because I have had no reason to. Some use it and have success. Using words like, stupidity and implying that I approve or don't care is slanderous.

I guess you just don't get it. You think I got cranky when you said that I was misguided about elite vaulters and the sand pit drills? Not at all. I didn't complain at all when you said that.

I only got cranky when you persisted in trying to flame me about it (twice, after your initial comment about it). You can have your opinion about sand pit drills, and I can have mine. But why get nasty about it?

Here's an idea - just keep your focus on Tim's topic(s), and never mind about me.

Please qualify your statement regarding your statement that sand pit drills are too "Juvenile" for Cameron or elite vaulters. Please understand that I'm not trying to insult you or "flame you". My request is reasonable and very pertinent to this thread, Cameron and is on topic.

[KirkB]

Please qualify your statement regarding your statement that sand pit drills are too "Juvenile" for Cameron or elite vaulters. Please understand that I'm not trying to insult you or "flame you". My request is reasonable and very pertinent to this thread, Cameron and is on topic.

At your urging, Grandevaulter, I posted a very thorough explanation of why tap vaults are unsafe and a poor training practice, and I backed up my position with extensive quotes from some highly respected PVP posters, including RainbowGirl, JJ, DJ, CoachEric, Altius, VaultPurple, KCvault, VCpvCoach, Vaultman18, Vault3rb0y, VaultMD, Starkey480, and VaultDad.

That's because I'm very passionate about pole vault safety, and I have the support of the PVP community behind me on this.

On the contrary, you won't find many comments from me on PVP about sand vault drills.

That's because I don't have any passion at all about sand vault drills (one way or the other), and I have nothing more to say on the matter except my original comment that I think those drills are too juvenile for Cameron, at his level. (I count his legal 18 foot clearance in a sanctioned 2014 beach vault meet as being an elite class PR.)

Grandevaulter, if you feel so passionate about sand vault drills and how they will help Cameron, then go for it - tell us all about it. I'm not stopping you!

You might also be interested in taking a poll of college coaches, and see how many of them use sand drills for their elite (18-0+) vaulters. Ask them why they do or why they don't use them.

You're barking up the wrong tree by continuing to ask me about sand vault drills.

Kirk

[grandevaulter]

That's because I don't have any passion at all about sand vault drills, and I have nothing more to say on the matter except my original comment that I think those drills are too juvenile for Cameron, at his level.

'

I think those drills are too juvenile

You have presented the readers with a great argument but have not proven your "juvenile" statement.

I think those drills

I think

You're barking up the wrong tree by continuing to ask me about sand vault drills.

That is one thing you are correct about.