pushing back out during the swing?

[altius]

"Sure is nice that Alan launder took the time to take those awesome slow motion black and white film of Bubka! Love the camera angles too!"

I always suspected that you never bothered to read other folks posts PVDaddy and this snide comment just about confirms it. If you bother to read my response to Coach Vinson's comment you would have seen that I credited Jacques Piasenta with that film. Unike some who come onto this forum I do not take credit for the work or ideas or others.

For other folk I would make the point that the clip of Bubka that is now being used by all and sundry to push their particular barrows - is just one on a series of jumps from many athletes around the period 1985 to 2000. Since Sean is not selling many copies it seems likely that folk are simply plagiarising and reproducing this work.

[KirkB]

Tap Swing ... The gymnast should be hollow in the rear phase of the swing. Head in, hollow chest and pushing away from the bar on the downward swing. As the gymnast passes between the uprights they should open to prepare for the tap. (Most gymnasts open the swing early causing the tap to go forward and not upward). As the gymnast begins the upwards phase of the forward swing they should tap aggressively towards the ceiling. As the upwards swing rises the gymnast should pull the bar back and push away to get their center of gravity as far away from the bar as possible for the downward swing.

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

Wow Altius I was being very genuine as I thought you had taken the film! I said that I was not able to see your later post clarifying who actually took it whenl I posted mine. You didn't bother to read mine before your truly snide comment!

This is what I posted after I saw the later post go back and read it:

I see there has been some new post added that showed up after I made mine and that I should have thanked the late Jacques Piasenta of France.

I think an apology is in order on your part!

[KirkB]

Tap Swing ... The gymnast should be hollow in the rear phase of the swing. Head in, hollow chest and pushing away from the bar on the downward swing. As the gymnast passes between the uprights they should open to prepare for the tap. (Most gymnasts open the swing early causing the tap to go forward and not upward). As the gymnast begins the upwards phase of the forward swing they should tap aggressively towards the ceiling. As the upwards swing rises the gymnast should pull the bar back and push away to get their center of gravity as far away from the bar as possible for the downward swing.

The "upward part of the forward swing" is the start of the upswing, AFTER the gymnast has passed the uprights.

If the PV "tap" is the entire downswing, then this doesn't match up very well. I think what Clymer means is the slight, subtle movement (just as a tap on the highbar is a slight, subtle movement) when the trail leg transitions from the downswing to the upswing - at the chord. Not the entire downswing.

There's nothing that a vaulter needs to conciously do here to invoke a so-called tap. He just needs to swing his trail leg vigorously in the rotational direction, and then he'll feel a whip/pop when he passes the chord.

I don't disagree with this movement - in fact I recommend it. It's just the semantics of the "tap" and the "Active-I position" that I find confusing.

On the highbar, it's the "tap" that propels the gymnast upwards vigorously. On the pole, it's the passing of the chord at the end of the downswing that invokes the change in direction of the vaulter's CoG.

i.e. IMO, there's no distinctive tapping action in the vault like there is on the highbar.

As the gymnast passes between the uprights they should open to prepare for the tap.

To "open" is to switch from a hollow chest to leading with the chest.

So ...

* During the downswing, the gymnast's chest is hollow (or straight in line with the body) whereas the vaulter's chest transforms from stretched forwards to hollow.
* As the gymnast passes the uprights, he quickly thrusts his chest forwards, whereas the vaulter's chest is hollowed.
* It's this quick thrust of the chest that characterizes the start of the tap on the highbar, whereas there's no such thrust by the vaulter on the pole.
* As soon as the gymnast thrusts his chest forwards, he quickly hollows it (taps) whilst breaking at the hips, whereas the vaulter now just breaks at the hips.
* During the upswing of the gymnast, he keeps his body more-or-less straight (and continues to keep his hands stretched away from his body), whereas during the upswing of the vaulter, he continues to break at the hips to stay close to the chord of the pole - moving his feet to his hands (and making no effort to keep his hands stretched away from his body, and making no effort to keep his body straight).

OK, I'm done. There's not much more that I can add to this topic that I haven't already said. Maybe if Brian Clymer posts something, I'll be back.

Kirk

[altius]

No apology coming PVDaddy - I simply don't believe you. You know how it is - once a dog has a bad name, one can never assume that it is to be trusted.

[PVDaddy]

Kirk: If the PV "tap" is the entire downswing, then this doesn't match up very well. I think what Clymer means is the slight, subtle movement (just as a tap on the highbar is a slight, subtle movement) when the trail leg transitions from the downswing to the upswing - at the chord. Not the entire downswing.

Tim Werner http://www.advantageathletics.com/polevault/swing.htm :

The swing (or tap) is initiated with the driving down of the trail foot to bring it in line with the knee and hips and the bringing of the left leg and hips in line with the top arm. This driving of the trail foot down can be compared to the gymnast’s tap of the feet on the horizontal bar. It lengthens the body quickly before the pole has a chance to recoil retaining its maximum kinetic energy. It makes the extended body a long lever. That will keep the top of the pole down longer while inverting...again retaining the poles maximum kinetic energy. It ends when the trail foot is in line with the hips, shoulders, and top hand.

The Pole Vault Gymnastics Tap Swing

This frame by frame pictured comparison between a gymnast and a pole vaulter demonstrates the best and most efficient action of the trail leg in the pole vault. This is the move as performed by a world class gymnast from the World Gymnastics Championships and a world class pole vaulter from the World Track and Field Championships. This move is done by gymnasts and pole vaulters alike. The move helps load and get the most thrust out of the horizontal bar or pole vault pole. The gymnast and pole vaulter both lift the trailing feet, or trail leg, then drive them down to get full extension of the body from the hands to the feet. This not only loads energy into the bar or pole but for the pole vaulter it creates a long lever to lift against the length of the pole. That is to say that when that long lever is lifted it helps keep the pole compressed. If the pole stays short, it will continue to roll over the top of the box. It also gives the vaulter more time to cover the top of the pole with his body (see The Pole Vault Rockback). In the vault the pole vaulter never wants the shoulders to pass the top hand, until after he/she is fully extended and inverted. That's how the body covers the top of the pole.

The Drive: Driving the torso through the hands and feet,
keeping the torso parallel with the trail foot under the top hand.

The Load: Lifting the trail foot and letting the hips slide to line up with the top hand and shoulders
and feeling the body swing from the top hand.

The Tap: Driving the trail foot down.

[KirkB]

I have huge respect for Tim Werner. His website is excellent, he "knows his stuff" very well, and he's paid his dues. He's an excellent PV coach, and he has earned my respect.

Having said that, there's a couple things that I disagree with him about.

1. He doesn't believe that vaulters should jump off the ground on takeoff. I do.
2. He calls the swing the "tap". To me, this is a stretch. A swing is a swing and a tap is a tap. The actions on a flexible pole are distinctively different.
3. He has a full page about the rockback phase of the vault, but if you remember my old tagline, you'll know what I think of the rockback! It used to say "THERE IS NO ROCKBACK".

I have since changed my tagline, and strangely enough I think Tim's thinking and my thinking are realigned. That is to say, Tim CALLS it the "rockback" phase, but really, he doesn't mean the "tuck" or the "delay" flaws of the rockback - and I don't either! We agree on the actions, but not in the words!

Thinking back to my steel and bamboo days, I think Tim's analogy of the PV swing and the highbar tap would have been much better. Especially on a bamboo pole, the amount of give on the pole is quite similar to the amount of give on a highbar. So a swing on a bamboo pole and the tap would be a much fairer comparison.

I think if I had read Tim's website first, I'd have had a much more open mind as to what he was saying. If you take the words "tap" and "rockback" out of his website (and our difference of opinion re jumping on takeoff), I agree with almost EVERYTHING he's saying, and I can look past the minor differences in the words that describe the actions.

BTW, I've done almost all of Tim's drills in my day. They're all GOOD! Anything that gets you familiar with each disparate vault part is GOOD! And anything where you can repeatedly practice each of the vault parts (without having to expend energy doing full vaults) is GOOD!

And had I read Tim' website first, I would not have been confused on what exactly he and Brian Clymer meant by comparing the tap to the PV swing. Thanks for pointing that out, PVDaddy. I agree now that I misunderstood what Tim and Brian were saying. I shoud have read the source material, rather than just trying to understand what PVDaddy restated in his own words. Tim's site clearly refers to the ENTIRE PV DOWNswing as being equivalent to the "tap" (which is what Coach Vinson said too). I don't happen to agree with this (for the reasons I stated in my previous posts), but at least I understand what Tim and Brian mean now.

My lesson learned is that in future when PVDaddy refers to something that doesn't make any sense to me, I'll ask him for his sources, and I"ll read those directly - rather than taking his interpretation of them and trying to understand THAT. I think this will save all of us a lot of grief.

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

No Kirk, Besides the fact that you don't agree with Clymer, Werner or me that there should be a Tapping motion in the downswing very similar to what a Gymnast performs on a high bar (In fact you made it clear that you feel it should not be taught to vaulters.

Kirk:

What I'm really getting at is that I don't think it's very helpful for a coach to tell his vaulter to "swing on the pole like you're doing a tap on the highbar",

That is not all that you don't agree with.

1. Werner and I believe in bending at the knee to elevate the trail leg prior the downswing and that World class gymnast perform this same action. You made it very clear you do not.

Kirk:

No, gymnasts should NOT bend at the knee. He will get points deducted for that. They should only arch their back during their downswing and break at the hips when they transition from their downswing to their upswing.

and..

Kirk:
Vaulters should also not bend at the knee (on their trail leg) during their elastic stretch - but most do (even Bubka)


2. You also do not believe in the benefit of intentionally Re-extending the bottom arm during the downswing to make the swing radius longer and the downswing more powerful like Petrov, Clymer and I do and is the subject of this thread.

Your Final statement is hilarious, rude and weak as you once again try to scapegoat on me for your lack of research and understanding.

Kirk

; PVDaddy, I wish you wouldn't keep making this stuff up. Instead, I wish you'd just quote appropriate gymnastics and PV authorities VERBATUM. Every time you add your own two bits worth (or try to use your own words), you confirm my suspicions that you don't really understand these gymnastics and PV concepts very well.

Sorry to be a thorn in your side, but I can't just sit idly by while you shovel out your fodder for young, unaware vaulters to consume. If you don't want me to challenge your theories and correct your mistakes, then don't keep putting your foot in your mouth.

My lesson learned is that in future when PVDaddy refers to something that doesn't make any sense to me, I'll ask him for his sources, and I"ll read those directly - rather than taking his interpretation of them and trying to understand THAT. I think this will save all of us a lot of grief.

Let's see what I posted on the subject "in my own words" that left you so dazed and confused and was so far from the mark as you allude to.

Me:

The Gymnast and the vaulter both bend at the knee to raise their feet while allowing the chest, torso, and hips to pass between their hands and feet into a hollowed out full body stretch position (The full body coil). This is the key position to begin the swing and is why penetration is so so important. From this full bodied coiled position the Gymnast and the vaulter are able to generate a tremendous amount of power as they come out of the coil. The body of the gymnast and vaulter must be as extended as much as possible in a straight line from the hand to the heel to release as much swing energy as possible coming out of the downswing and going into the upswing. This occurs for the vaulter when they are at a 45 degree angle with their heel extended toward the pit and is termed the Active-I position. This position is the TAP of the swing. If the vaulter performs this correctly they will "Feel" the axis of rotation on the top hand. This TAP swing was taught and learned by Bubka from his early days in gymnast school while on the high bar under the old Soviet system. He carried it forward to the pole vault. I believe it is imperative that we as coaches teach our vaulters " The TAP swing!

Now for what Tim Werner had to say again:

The swing (or tap) is initiated with the driving down of the trail foot to bring it in line with the knee and hips and the bringing of the left leg and hips in line with the top arm. This driving of the trail foot down can be compared to the gymnast’s tap of the feet on the horizontal bar. It lengthens the body quickly before the pole has a chance to recoil retaining its maximum kinetic energy. It makes the extended body a long lever. That will keep the top of the pole down longer while inverting...again retaining the poles maximum kinetic energy. It ends when the trail foot is in line with the hips, shoulders, and top hand.

The Pole Vault Gymnastics Tap Swing

This frame by frame pictured comparison between a gymnast and a pole vaulter demonstrates the best and most efficient action of the trail leg in the pole vault. This is the move as performed by a world class gymnast from the World Gymnastics Championships and a world class pole vaulter from the World Track and Field Championships. This move is done by gymnasts and pole vaulters alike. The move helps load and get the most thrust out of the horizontal bar or pole vault pole. The gymnast and pole vaulter both lift the trailing feet, or trail leg, then drive them down to get full extension of the body from the hands to the feet. This not only loads energy into the bar or pole but for the pole vaulter it creates a long lever to lift against the length of the pole. That is to say that when that long lever is lifted it helps keep the pole compressed. If the pole stays short, it will continue to roll over the top of the box. It also gives the vaulter more time to cover the top of the pole with his body (see The Pole Vault Rockback). In the vault the pole vaulter never wants the shoulders to pass the top hand, until after he/she is fully extended and inverted. That's how the body covers the top of the pole.

The Drive: Driving the torso through the hands and feet,
keeping the torso parallel with the trail foot under the top hand.

The Load: Lifting the trail foot and letting the hips slide to line up with the top hand and shoulders
and feeling the body swing from the top hand.

The Tap: Driving the trail foot down.

[PVDaddy]

So to sum it up IMHO these are the 5 key components of the Pole Vault TAP that we as coaches should be looking for.

1.) Great penetration and position post take off into the full body stretch (reverse-C) while..

2.) the trail leg is being elevated.
I believe other than the fact that this increases the swings range of motion, the elevation of the trail leg also has the added benefit of serving as a counter weight to improve the vaulters body position. (Note these are my own thoughts and I have not read about this anywhere).

3.) The most vigorous downswing (Whipping action) the vaulter can possibly generate (If I was listing order of importance this would be number 1 by far!) while..

4) The bottom hand is re-extended both upward and forward with the pole (I believe the top hand also gets extended to a small degree as the elbow is very slightly flexed). IMHO I believe this moves the vaulter further away from the pole which makes the lever longer and more powerful with great coil range through shoulders and arms , assist in getting the shoulders back and the hips up,lowers the vaulters COG toward the feet and maintains constant pressure on the full body coil and the pole throughout the downswing.

5.) Complete extension of the entire body from the top hand to the swing leg heel, by stretching the swing leg heel to the pit. This is the culmination of the Pole vault foot tap and is termed Active-I.

Many believe there also exist a second opportunity for the vaulter to perform another tapping action at the top of the swing as the gymnast does at dismount and is the subject of my future research.

[KirkB]

So to sum it up IMHO these are the 5 key components of the Pole Vault TAP that we as coaches should be looking for. ...

Really?

Let's vote!

Tell us if you agree (or not) that there is such a thing as a "Pole Vault TAP" and you use this concept when you coach or vault.

Then list the numbers (1-6; 6 being the last one that he added after #5) of PVDaddy's 6 key components that he thinks "we as coaches should be looking for" AND you agree with!

I DISAGREE WITH AND DON'T USE THIS CONCEPT, and the points that I agree with (despite what he or Tim or Brian calls them) are: 1, 2, 3, 5.

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

Kirk, I just want you to know that I don't view this as a competition and I dont think you do as well. I think this is a very good idea and would make for some excellent debate and learning for all (Myself included). I think that the concept of a pole vault tap is a relatively new one and was not thought about or coached for by most in the past. That in and of itself does not mean that does not have validity and benefit, after all it was not that long ago that coaches were confortable with or
taught the free take off and now the concept is becomming univerally excepted by most. So for me the question that needs to be asked is not so much if the tap in the vault has been taught but whether it holds merit? As posters are thinking about that and giving their own opinion based on their own critical thinking not based on what others think I suggest they look at Bubkas first 6 meter vault.

[PVDaddy]

Also I made 5 key points not 6 like you said. I made it clear in my final sentence that a tap at the top of the swing was the subject of my future study. So let me make that clear to all I am still undecided. I would however be very interested in hearing feedback on that subject. Sorry for my typos above. It is vey difficult to make post on this tablet.