pushing back out during the swing?

[KirkB]

Clymer is trying to convey the message that a vaulter can benefit greatly in the swing of the vault by taking full advantage of the same tapping action that the gymnast performs on the high bar. If you believe that's true then I believe you also must believe that PUSHING AWAY ...

I DON'T believe that's true, and I thought I was very clear about that. Go back to where I stated that I'm 90% sure that I didn't "tap" at the end of my downswing.

I was also very clear about stating that I didn't see a "tap" in Bubka's 6m vault - or anyone else's vault. I only saw powerful downswings, with no "tap" at the end of them.

I'm waiting for clarification from someone else besides you, PVDaddy, on whether anyone has felt or can see this so-called "tap". Maybe Coach Vinson answered that question - I"ll have to go back and look at his post. I may have time to do that tomorrow.

Until Brian or some OTHER "tap" pundit can convince me otherwise (by clarifying what he meant), the rest of this discussion is pointless.

Kirk

[altius]

It would be nice -just for once - to have folk acknowledge where all the great slow motion black and white film of Bubka has come from. But since plagiarism rules in the pole vaulting world I suppose that is unlikely to happen.

[coachjvinson]

Maybe Coach Vinson answered that question - I"ll have to go back and look at his post. I may have time to do that tomorrow. Until Brian or some OTHER "tap" pundit can convince me otherwise (by clarifying what he meant), the rest of this discussion is pointless.
Kirk

basic tap fundamentals involve going from a hollow to arch to hollow position...

the first hollow is the plant with arms forward, stretch C is the arch, and then tap/whip to hollow position...

there is not a TAP impetus following the downswing/whipkick... at this point, if you are talking about tap or trying to tap at this point, you have missed the fundamental concept IMHO...

A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new...

One final thought...
I really wish I knew where all of that AWESOME black and white SBUBKA footage originated from...!!!???


Thank you Alan!!

[altius]

Thanks Jonathon but I was merely the messenger - I am good at that role - but the film was produced by the late Jacques Piasenta of France. If anyone wants a copy of the whole film, it is available from Sean Brown at Neovault.

[KirkB]

basic tap fundamentals involve going from a hollow to arch to hollow position...

the first hollow is the plant with arms forward, stretch C is the arch, and then tap/whip to hollow position...

there is not a TAP impetus following the downswing/whipkick... at this point, if you are talking about tap or trying to tap at this point, you have missed the fundamental concept IMHO...

Thanks for this clarification, Coach Vinson.

I hesitate to assume that your interpretation of Brian's concept re the "tap" is correct, since you editted your previous post 13 times - which suggests some uncertainty. I'd still like to hear from Brian Clymer himself.

However, on the assumption that your interpretation is correct, I think it does clarify the mystery of the PV "tap" - somewhat.

It really sounds like a stretch (of one's imagination) to me to say that the first "hollow" is the plant.

And although I can see what Brian's getting at in equating the downswing to the setup of the "tap" and the final "pop"/"whip" of the downswing to the actual "tap", where I fail to see this as being identical to a true gymnastic tap is that in PV it's a one-legged downswing/tap (for most of us), instead of a two-legged gymnastic tap. In my mind, it's just not close enough to the same feeling to call it a tap. Maybe I lack imagination, and I'm being too sticky about precise definitions?

What I'm really getting at is that I don't think it's very helpful for a coach to tell his vaulter to "swing on the pole like you're doing a tap on the highbar", and it's not very helpful for a vaulter to think "swing on the pole like you're doing a tap". I agree that you should swing like on a highbar, but thinking about doing a tap on the pole just doesn't make any sense to me - from either a coach's or a vaulter's perspective.

But whatever. If that's what Brian's referring to, then we can at least resolve the mystery, and understand what we each mean by the terms tap, Active-I, downswing, pop, and whip.

My conclusion is that there's no special "tap" thing that a vaulter must do at a certain point of his swing. The downswing/whip that we see Bubka do is what we should model our vaults after. Nothing less, nothing more.

I will continue to call these vault parts the "downswing" and the "whip", and others can call it the "tap" and the "Active-I" if they wish.

I find these extra words confusing, but I'm ready to move on.

Kirk

[coachjvinson]

Thanks for this clarification, Coach Vinson.

anytime, glad to help...
V

[PVDaddy]

Sure is nice that Alan launder took the time to take those awesome slow motion black and white film of Bubka! Love the camera angles too!

Kirk, just curious what exactly is it that you are looking for that would convey a TAP occurred in the vault?

[PVDaddy]

I see there has been some new post added that showed up after I made mine and that I should have thanked the late Jacques Piasenta of France.
My research of the TAP definition from a Gymnastic site include a "pushing away from the bar" in the downswing and "pulling toward the bar" in the upswing. I noticed Coachjvinson did not include that in his?

[PVDaddy]

"The TAP swing" performed by World Class Gymnast and Vaulters alike should not be confused with the TAP of the swing. The Gymnast and the vaulter both bend at the knee to raise their feet while allowing the chest, torso, and hips to pass between their hands and feet into a hollowed out full body stretch position (The full body coil). This is the key position to begin the swing and is why penetration is so so important. From this full bodied coiled position the Gymnast and the vaulter are able to generate a tremendous amount of power as they come out of the coil. The body of the gymnast and vaulter must be as extended as much as possible in a straight line from the hand to the heel to release as much swing energy as possible coming out of the downswing and going into the upswing. This occurs for the vaulter when they are at a 45 degree angle with their heel extended toward the pit and is termed the Active-I position. This position is the TAP of the swing. If the vaulter performs this correctly they will "Feel" the axis of rotation on the top hand. This TAP swing was taught and learned by Bubka from his early days in gymnast school while on the high bar under the old Soviet system. He carried it forward to the pole vault. I believe it is imperative that we as coaches teach our vaulters " The TAP swing!

[KirkB]

"The TAP swing" performed by World Class Gymnast and Vaulters alike should not be confused with the TAP of the swing.

First you say that the "TAP swing" should not be confused with the "TAP" of the "swing" ...

... This TAP swing was taught and learned by Bubka from his early days in gymnast school while on the high bar under the old Soviet system. He carried it forward to the pole vault. I believe it is imperative that we as coaches teach our vaulters " The TAP swing!

Then you refer to the "TAP swing" on the highbar and on the pole as if it's the same thing. Very confusing. Is it the same thing, or is it different?

The Gymnast and the vaulter both bend at the knee to raise their feet while allowing the chest, torso, and hips to pass between their hands and feet into a hollowed out full body stretch position ...

No, gymnasts should NOT bend at the knee. He will get points deducted for that. They should only arch their back during their downswing and break at the hips when they transition from their downswing to their upswing. Also, it's only the chest that should "pass between their hands and feet into a hollowed out full body stretch position". The torso and hips do not pass that imaginary line.

Vaulters should also not bend at the knee (on their trail leg) during their elastic stretch - but most do (even Bubka). I coach vaulters to keep their knee straight, as any bend lets the dowswing start suboptimally, without "capturing" the utmost energy of the long trail leg at the most elastic point in the stretch. Ditto for gymnasts - they should NOT bend their knees at this point - for the same reason (and also so style points won't be deducted).

And when vaulters whip at the end of the downswing, it's OK to bend their knees a bit (to shorten the radius of their swing). This is contrary to a gymnast's technique at the end of their downswing, where they should NOT bend their knees.

PVDaddy, I wish you wouldn't keep making this stuff up. Instead, I wish you'd just quote appropriate gymnastics and PV authorities VERBATUM. Every time you add your own two bits worth (or try to use your own words), you confirm my suspicions that you don't really understand these gymnastics and PV concepts very well.

Sorry to be a thorn in your side, but I can't just sit idly by while you shovel out your fodder for young, unaware vaulters to consume. If you don't want me to challenge your theories and correct your mistakes, then don't keep putting your foot in your mouth.

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

Kirk:

First you say that the "TAP swing" should not be confused with the "TAP" of the "swing" ...

That's correct, I did! The TAP swing is the entire downswing. The "TAP" of the swing is the Active-I. What is so hard to understand about that? You seem to get confused very easily. Not meant to hurt your feelings.

Kirk:

Then you refer to the "TAP swing" on the highbar and on the pole as if it's the same thing. Very confusing. Is it the same thing, or is it different?

Yes I did intend to infer that the same principles are at work and the swing is very similar. Most vaulters swing with one foot but it's the same principle.

Kirk:

No, gymnasts should NOT bend at the knee. He will get points deducted for that. They should only arch their back during their downswing and break at the hips when they transition from their downswing to their upswing.

I'm talking about bending at the knees BEFORE the downswing! Also breaking at the hips during the upswing was not even mentioned and had nothing to do with my post?

Kirk:

Also, it's only the chest that should "pass between their hands and feet into a hollowed out full body stretch position". The torso and hips do not pass that imaginary line.

I think you better look more closely and not just one frame. Also this was meant to be of a general statement describing the hollowed out position anyway.

Kirk:

Vaulters should also not bend at the knee (on their trail leg) during their elastic stretch - but most do (even Bubka)

.

I disagree. Bending at the knee PRIOR to the downswing increases the range of motion, therefore the power of the downswing. Bubka does it intentionally and for good reason!

Kirk:

PVDaddy, I wish you wouldn't keep making this stuff up. Instead, I wish you'd just quote appropriate gymnastics and PV authorities VERBATUM. Every time you add your own two bits worth (or try to use your own words), you confirm my suspicions that you don't really understand these gymnastics and PV concepts very well.

Ok try this link for starters: http://www.advantageathletics.com/polevault/swing.htm

Read the Whole thing! While your there note the World class gymnast with the bent knees and the position of Bubka's torso and hips in relation to the hands (Very first Pic). Like I have said to you so many times Kirk I get my information from many sources, including Tim Werner. As usual your lack of study and willingness to move forward has left you in the dust with outdated theories and philosophies and your the one who doesn't understand PV concepts very well! You are not even close to being on the same level with Clymer or Werner or even pehaps yours trully!

[PVDaddy]

From my studies of Clymer and others it is at the Active-I position that the TAP swing energy reaches a maximum and is transferred to the upswing. I always thought of that as the TAP portion of the swing. Gymnast use the term "foot TAP. Honestly, I don't know were the word tap came from and I thought it was suggesting a place were the maximum amount of velocity occurred as you come out of the coil and fully extend your body and heel (making your body as long as possible) and that energy is transferred (as in one object taps the next) to the upswing. Now I see were others use the word TAP interchangeably with TAP swing. I now believe my definition is incorrect and what I called the TAP is actually just the end of it or what Clymer calls Active-I.