pushing back out during the swing?

[PVDaddy]

Kirk,you make a great point that the length of the chord effects the speed of the forward roll of the pole. I Thought you were arguing the point that I had made about the greatest contribution of ensuring the forward roll of the pole occured somewhere between active-I and the beginning of the downswing. I believe that Clymer is suggesting that this is the ideal location and is the point that the maximum transfer of the kinetic energy is made to ensure the forward roll of the pole.Because the chord of the pole is at it shortest point here (We both agree with that as well), I believe it makes total sense that this would be the ideal place to transfer the kinetic energy from the downswing to ensure the poles forward roll. I believe that Clymer is saying that at the beginning of the upswing (Active-I) and as the vaulter begins to break at the hips (the point were you say the length of the chord is shortest and I concur) the shortened radius of the swing (caused by breaking at the hips) imparts a forward thrust to the forward roll of the pole. I also really like how you have brought to light that when the pole bends to the left it causes an optical illusion as to the extent that the pole is rolling forward! I also like your point and agree with you that when Petrov says " always move the pole " he is also saying always move the body both forward and upward! . :yes
You evidently are are merely pointing out that as the vaulter breaks at the hips, the chord of the pole is beginning to lengthen and as this occurs the forward roll of the pole is slowing down. I agree.

[KirkB]

It sounds like we agree then.

I'd still like to hear from Brian Clymer re the Active-I, because I'm still confused about that.

PVDaddy, do you have any specific links to Brian's writings that might shed some light on this?

Kirk

[KirkB]

I found Brian's website here: http://www.gojumphouse.com. Good stuff!

I also found a couple of his vids on youtube (they're also on his website). The two I reviewed tonight were:

A Pole Vault Technical Model - Clymer Version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTci0CBznEU and

The Pole Vault - After the Toe Leaves the Ground: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9UuCpwEWLE.

In these vids, I saw several mentions of the term "Active-I".

From what I learned by viewing his vids, the Active-I is a synonym for the gymnastic "tap". He also referred to the "early swing", which I would say is a synonym for the "downswing".

I now understand what Brian means by the Active-I being active. It means active in the same sense that the gymnastic "tap" is active. This is not a point in time, but a duration of a split second in time, where the body switches from the "Inverted-C" to the "I", and then ends with the "C". Don't confuse this with the entire downswing - it's not. Its duration is the same as the duration of a gymnast's tap - it's just a split second when the body switches from a very shallow Inverted-C to a very shallow/hollow C. If you have ever FELT the gymnastic "tap", or perhaps even if you've ever SEEN it, you'll know what I mean. It's NOT the entire downswing - it's just the very last bit of it. And it's certainly not part of the upswing. It's just when the downswing transitions into the upswing.

So I think I now understand the part that PVDaddy was referring to - about using the abs, etc, to intitiate the upswing - and I replied that using the abs, etc wasn't necessary if you had a vigorous downswing like Bubka (or something like that). I'm not sure of the duration that PVDaddy was referring to, but Brian was only referring to the "tap" part of the upswing - just the very first little bit of it!

Now what I have to say about this may sound strange, but I can only say what I FELT during my vaulting days ...

I was a fairly good gymnast (compared to other elite vaulters), and I often 'tapped" when I did giants or a kip-to-a-handstand. So I KNEW (and still KNOW) what a "tap" felt like (feels like).

When I explained my downswing in my Bryde Bend thread 5 years ago, and when I continue to explain/clarify what I consider good Petrov technique today, I have never felt that the end of the downswing was a "tap". I do understand Brian's POV, but it's something that I've never personally felt.

I definitely felt a "pop" feeling - a feeling of popping out of the downswing and into the upswing (when I bent at the hips) without any (or hardly any) abs or arms effort at all.

Was this a "tap" that I was doing? I don't think so. It certainly didn't feel like the taps that I did on the highbar. But maybe I was tapping during my vaults but just didn't realize it? Or is this just all symantics?

I'm questioning this, but I think there's only a 10% chance that I was tapping, and an 90% chance that I wasn't. I think the end of my downswing was just that - the end of my downswing and the start of my upswing. I just didn't feel a "tap" at that point of my vault!

I would be very interested in hearing from other vaulters that have FELT what a "tap" on the highbar felt like, versus what their so-called "tap" on the pole (at the end of their downswing) felt like.

I think if we can reach a mutual understanding of what really SHOULD be DONE or FELT during this point of the vault, we can use it to (1) coach our vaulters better; and (2) at least understand what each other's talking about when we say "tap" or "Active-I" or downswing or upswing.

Brian Clymer and PVDaddy are free to use the terms "Active-I" and "tap" just as I'm free to use the terms "downswing" and "upswing". I just don't see the value of the term "Active-I" if it doesn't mean anything different than the term "tap". If it's a tap, then call it a tap!

Or is it the same as a "pop" - just like what I felt and described?

Kirk

[KirkB]

Looking at Brian Clymer's vid "Pole Vault - The Swing in Slow Motion" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v6L4p0bNaE), I just can't see a "tap" in any of these vaults.

Can anyone else?

I see a DOWNSWING and an UPSWING and a WHIP in all of them (more WHIP in Bubka's than the others), but I don't see a "tap".

Kirk

[KirkB]

I just viewed Brian Clymer's vid "A Closer Look at Bubka's 1st 6m Vault": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhqEdocpfcM&feature=player_embedded#t=11.

This is an EXCELLENT video of Bubka's 1st 6m vault, and Brian has provided EXCELLENT textual commentary in it.

I've now come to the conclusion that I shouldn't get too hung up by the words "Active-I" and "tap".

Why? Because Bubka's vids are what they are. He cleared 6.00m in this vault (and many others), and any discrepancies and differences in interpretation all come down to semantics. What Brian calls the "tap", I call the "whip". And what Brian calls the "Active-I" position, I simply refer to the transition between the downswing and the upswing (also known as the "whip").

Brian's "Active-I" position is really not a single position. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's the duration from the start of the so-called "tap" to the end of it.

I've never felt the phenomonem of the "tap" during my vaults like I've felt them on the highbar. But I certainly felt the same feeling of a vigorous, powerful WHIP on both. So I'll leave it as that, unless anyone can provide any further clarifications.

I'm very interested in hearing the opinions of other posters re this.

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

when I first heard the term Active-I, from Clymer. I became very intrigued why the word "active" was used to name this position. I was familiar with and had used the term the I-position that describes when the body is elongated in the inverted position when your body is upside down and your feet become an extension of the chord of the pole ( I now prefer to call this inverted-I) but never heard the term active-I. When I examined this position, I noticed that the body is completely straight from the top hand to the swing leg heel and in perfect line with the chord of the pole. I had not thought about that before and that there are only two points in the of ground phase of the vault were this occurs. I ask myself what is so "active" about this position? I remembered Petrov's "Pole vault State of the art" were he said the drive of the hips upward is ensured through the "active" extension of the bottom arm. I didn't understood what he meant and why would the extension of the bottom arm ensure the drive of the hips upward? I knew that gymnast performed a technique on the high bar during the downswing (not to take anything away from your "coined" phrase Kirk, but gymnast have used the term 'downswing' for a long time) they call the "TAP" out of Hollowed out body position were they push out away from the bar to elongate their swing and that this generates greater power, because longer levers have greater power. The gymnastic sight I researched also said it lowers their center of gravity. I may be wrong in this analogy, but I think of a lead weight on the end of a string effect when they say it lowers their COG? I have received scrutiny from you on this subject, that the object is not to lower your center of gravity but to raise it. I would agree with you if we were talking about the "Upswing" while you are extending the bottom arm, but we are discussing the downswing. Also when they hollow out their body they have created a coil, just as the vaulter does and the golfer does and they are able to generate thrust in their swing through what I call the full body coil. I was delighted to find that Clymer makes many mentions of what he calls "the body coil" and he says the body coil extends from the elastic shoulders to the body core. I believe the body coils all the way from the top hand to the swing leg toe and is the reason I use the term" full body coil". After all, are not the arm and leg muscles elastic as well? Do they not also stretch? I love terms that most fully describe the activity being performed such as Inverted-I or active-I which leads us back to the question why was it termed active-I? I would love to know were Clymer first heard this term? Was it from Pfaff or Werner or did he coin it? Kirk I believe active-I refers to the fixed position, and does not refer to any range of the downswing or upswing . You are only in that I-position from the top hand to the swing leg heel, at the chord of the pole, for one milisecond. I believe it is exactly were the downswing ends and the upswing begins. But we need Clymer to answer that for us all. It is just my guess, but, I believe he chooses to call this position active-I, because it is at this very spot that the kinetic energy from the downswing is transferred to the upswing and the forward roll of the pole. I believe He makes that point very clear that this action occurs at this point in his video "after the toe leaves the ground." At least that was my interpretation. Was it yours? Also if one buys into the idea that the vaulter should performs a TAP on the pole similar to the gymnast on the high bar and I do, I believe it is also at this very spot that the added energy generated by this tapping action is transferred now to the upswing and the forward roll of the pole. I also find it very interesting that it is at this very point that the active upward and forward extension of the bottom hand throughout the downswing stops! I believe that Petrov is saying that the active extension of the bottom hand creates the pole vault Tap, while at the same time helps get the shoulders back and the hips up when he says:

It is worth
mentioning here that the arrest of the shoulders after the deep penetration ensures the
drive of the hips upwards to the pole, through
active unbending of the left arm, whereas the
acceleration of the vaulter’s hips drive
upwards was built up by the turn of the
shoulders back and down.

It is however very interesting that Clymer does not even address the active extension of the bottom hand in his videos, other then mention it is similar to the gymnastic tap. Sure would be nice to get his perspective on this thread!

[coachjvinson]

the "tap" phase
IMHO
is synonymous with the swing as you point out... (Bryde)

However, In my experience, some vaulters have a strong swing, but lack a tap impetus originating through the shoulder... Similarly, there are coaches that emphasize solid swing mechanics but miss the shoulder dynamics involved in the "tap" Until recently, I was in this group; now I am a convert, advocate and a work in progress... and I am very thankful for the guidance of several athletes and coaches for this... "THANK YOU"

IMHO...
The "TAP" directly follows takeoff/stretchC - and is the impetus to "uncoil" and initiate the swing/whipkick...
AND the tap IS INITIATED before the "active I" position...

IMHO...
In order to TAP, the vaulter must be able plant, takeoff and stretch to C with open shoulders, with out blocking in the shoulder joint(s)... (this is not the same as blocking with a straight bottom arm -fyi) - with an open shoulder joint(s), the shoulder joint(s) should be closed with an impulse which moves the arms forward quickly/slightly - the whip kick occurs simultaneously... in my understanding...

if you look at "Bubka's first 6m clip (BClymer)" my understanding is that the TAP/SWING begins at 03:55...
it is shown again following this..

@04:20 in the video, Coach Clymer specifically states that C to I position are connected strongly and aggressively by the WHIP/TAP
Thoughtful critiques and replies welcomed,
(00.02)
V

[KirkB]

... I knew that gymnast performed a technique on the high bar during the downswing (not to take anything away from your "coined" phrase Kirk, but gymnast have used the term 'downswing' for a long time) they call the "TAP" out of Hollowed out body position were they push out away from the bar to elongate their swing and that this generates greater power, because longer levers have greater power. The gymnastic site I researched also said it lowers their center of gravity. ...

I'm aware that the term "downswing" has been used for a long time. In fact, I pointed out in an earlier post that John A. first used the term in this context in 2003. And that's where I got the term too. I don't know why no one made that connection before me, but they didn't (at least not on PVP). The association of downswinging on the pole is very SIMILAR to the downswing on the highbar, and that's exactly why I connected the two.

In contrast, I'm having trouble associating the "tap" on a highbar to the "whip" or "pop" on the pole. I just don't see as clear of a connection. Coach Vinson: I'll reply to post re this soon - no time left tonight.

Also PVDaddy, the way you describe the gymnastic "tap", I'm not convinced that you've personnally experienced what a "tap" feels like - or you wouldn't be explaining it as you are. It just seems to me that you're quoting others without a full understanding or appreciation for the intracies of what THEY'RE talking about.

I have received scrutiny from you on this subject, that the object is not to lower your center of gravity but to raise it.

I can understand why I've confused you re lowering your CoG v. raising it. It was in relation to your mentioning of "staying low during the Active-I", whilst you seemed to be inferring that the Active-I occurred during AND AFTER the body passed the chord.

Now that I've researched Brian's vids and writings, I've determined on my own what he means, so I no longer need to depend on you as the middle-man to interpret what he meant by Active-I. My conclusion NOW is that the Active-I, whip, "pop", and "tap" all end the moment the body passes the chord - not at all during the upswing.

But in fairness to you, it does sound contradictory that you must go DOWN to go UP. Actually, the DOWNswing is the ROTATIONAL action of the trail leg hinging at the hip and top hand (the top hand to begin with, then transforming to the hip). So it's not really going in a DOWNwards direction. More FORWARDS than any other direction, I'd say. However, as the energy of the trail leg is transferred to the pole, the chord will shorten and for that reason the CoG of the overall vaulter-pole system will drop slightly (but not much at all, when done right).

So an emphasis (by you) on the tap lowering the CoG isn't an advantage in PV, even if it MAY be an advantage in gymnastics.

I hope that's a clearer explanation.

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

wow Kirk I never mentioned anything about "staying low "during the active-I. I did say that I believed that the tap cases your COG to lower during the downswing like it does for the gymnast ! I would appreciate it if you refrained from putting words in my mouth. Also it is very rude of you to assume that I have no understanding of the gymnastic tap on the high bar. Also read your earlier post. It was you who was confused about wether the active-I was a position, which I always felt it was and you thought it was a range of movement between the downswing and the upswing? you are the one that has been confused and it appears you want to make me the scapegoat for your lack of understanding and I refuse to let this happen! I see a lot of back peddling taking place here on your part. Bottom line here Kirk is do you now believe that there is benefit of re-reextending the arms during the downswing to create a tap in the vault or not?

[KirkB]

PVDaddy, I've been trying to keep this dialogue civil, but I fear that you're now entering the realm of personal attacks. I'm just not going to fall for this.

I was paraphrasing you when I said "staying low during the Active-I", which is exactly what you're saying re the tap "causes your COG to lower during the downswing ...". That's all I'm going to say about that.

You can call me rude or not, but you still haven't clarified whether you've ever done a shoot-to-a-handstand or a giant on the highbar (both involving a tap), so I make no apologies for that. If you've never DONE something, then you can't properly describe it to the level of detail that you're attempting to describe it. No put-down intended. I'm just trying to get to the facts. You should not be embarassed or feel insulted if you have never personally felt a tap - many PV coaches haven't. But then again, they don't try to describe it in detail either.

Now that I've watched and read some of Brian's vids, I see where you're getting a lot of your information from. I don't see how you can be so enthusiastic and so convinced about something that you've only read about from one author (3 if you include his primary sources - Dan Pfaff and Tim Werner). It's not as if you've tried out his theories on your athletes - you're still just going by what you think sounds good in theory - without any apparent connection to reality. You need to connect the dots by trying out your theories on your athletes AND GET THEIR FEEDBACK.

No, IMO there's still no benefit in re-reextending the arms during the downswing (whatever that means). It's quite surprising that you would even ask me this question. What is it that you think you've now convinced me about? If Brian himself is convinced that extending the arms during the downswing is a good thing, then I'll discuss that with him. It's futile to go thru a middle-man re this - I might as well deal directly with the source. As far as I can tell, I think you must be misinterpreting what he's saying.

I really like Brian's distinction between CREW rowing and KAYAK rowing. Good, original stuff that I hadn't read about or thought about before. It also makes perfect sense to me the way he describes kayak rowing during the downswing as altering the path of the vaulter's CoG and causing the pole to uncoil too early and too abruptly. This goes hand-in-glove with what I've referred to as the need for a SMOOTH transition from horizontal momentum to vertical momentum, and to ALWAYS MOVE UPDWARDS.

Brian saying that "rowing causes the pole to uncoil too early" is EXACTLY the same as me saying that "any bottom arm pressure during the downswing will cause the chord to lengthen, thus killing the natural swing of the body" (and the natural bend of the pole).

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

Kirk:

the way you describe the gymnastic "tap", I'm not convinced that you've personnally experienced what a "tap" feels like - or you wouldn't be explaining it as you are. It just seems to me that you're quoting others without a full understanding or appreciation for the intracies of what THEY'RE talking about.

You can call me rude or not, but you still haven't clarified whether you've ever done a shoot-to-a-handstand or a giant on the highbar (both involving a tap), so I make no apologies for that. If you've never DONE something, then you can't properly describe it to the level of detail that you're attempting to describe it. No put-down intended. I'm just trying to get to the facts. You should not be embarassed or feel insulted if you have never personally felt a tap - many PV coaches haven't. But then again, they don't try to describe it in detail either.

To answer you question, no I have not done a giant to a handstand, but, I have done some basic longswings on a high bar using the TAP technique, were I was easily able to get my hips over the bar.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, I think the concept behind the TAP is a fairly simple one. I don't think you have to be a world class gymnast to explain it or understand's its basic principles. It involves coming out of the downswing in a hollowed out position (inverse-C or body coil As Clymer terms it) while pushing out away from the bar and extending your feet through the swing. While you are in the downswing you are also coming out of the coil. From this body coiled position the gymnast or the vaulter or the golfer is able to generate a lot of power as they come out of it. Pushing away from the bar or the pole also increase the power of your downswing as it makes it a longer radius and also lowers your COG (This is true on the high bar or the pole)! I have added my two cents worth that I also believe that pushing away from the bar or pole maintains more pressure (or Stretch) across the full body coil from the hands to the feet. During the upswing the gymnast or vaulter should pull back against the bar or pole to increase its power and speed of the upswing and raise your COG!

Kirk, You have not studied Clymers videos in enough detail, especially, "After the toe leaves the ground", because, if you did you would not be confused so confused about the significance of the Active-I position or the point that I was trying to convey about when the upswing occurs and the vaulter breaks at the hips the change in radius and direction of the swing imposes a forward roll impetus on the pole. Thats it! It has nothing to do with describing the Active-I. It is not my fault that you had not done your ground work in advance about these principles. I get my PV info from a lot of different sources. I felt that your post suggested that I do not have the abillity to understand or convey these principles to others and frankly I find that very offensive!

[PVDaddy]

That being said, you do make a valid point when you say, just because someone says something doesn't make it so. When I read another authors work, especially if it technical, I try my best to carefully think about the points and principles they are trying to convey and relay them to other principles I have already learned and experienced for myself in the real world to see if I think they hold any merit. So far IMHO I feel Clymers videos do. Clymer is trying to convey the message that a vaulter can benefit greatly in the swing of the vault by taking full advantage of the same tapping action that the gymnast performs on the high bar. If you believe that's true then I believe you also must believe that PUSHING AWAY from the pole during the DOWNSWING and PULLING TOWARD the pole during the UPSWING is the way to go. If you go back and study Clymers "Bubka's first 6 meter vault" you will see were hes says the vaulter should "Re-extend" the arms during the downswing.I did not notice that point the first time and I usually read (Study) someones work on more than one one occasion for that very reason. I have however, never found anything of his were he addresses the subject of when or if the vaulter should pull?