pushing back out during the swing?

[VaultMarq26]

I think I have missed something. I have read beginner to Bubka cover to cover, I have been involved in the pole vault for 14 years ( which I understand is not a long time), but nowhere have I ever read or heard that the bottom arm should be pulling down during the takeoff and swing phases. Where in agapits writing does it say that?.

[KirkB]

PVDaddy has some concepts correct, but it's the spin that he puts on it that puts it out of whack. Without any intent of getting into a debate with him on this topic, I feel compelled to at least clarify the concepts misconstrued by him, and compliment him where he "got it right".

Take a look at " Bubka's first 6 Meter vault ".

Where PVDaddy's concepts are based on his study of Bubka's vids and his study of PVP threads written by experienced vaulters and coaches (including mine and Agapit's), my concepts are based on my personal experience as an elite vaulter. The difference is that you cannot determine Bubka's intent by watching a vid of his, whereas I KNOW FOR A FACT what my intent was when I vaulted - because I FELT it.

The vaulter's INTENT is what's most important - not what someone THINKS the vaulter is trying to do by wathcing PV vids. Coaches learn by DISCUSSING their athlete's vaults with them - immediately after each jump - not just by watching vids without any discussion. Instant bidirectional feedback to both the vaulter and the coach. That's how the vaulter-coach team learns from each other.

Freeze the frame where his bottom hand is directly over his head at 12 oclock. This just happens to be the point that the vaulter has completed vaulter/pole system loading and penetration is complete.

Although the reference to "completed vaulter/pole system loading and penetration" isn't really true. You might just as easily say that the system is fully loaded at the moment of takeoff (one definition of loading), or you could say that the system is fully loaded when the pole is at full bend (another definition) - so this frame isn't significant in terms of the system being fully loaded or not.

I suppose you could say that the system is loaded in the same way that you say that a slingshot is "fully loaded" when its elastic is stretched to the max. I suppose that's another valid definition of a system being "loaded".

I called this the "split position" in Bryde Bend terminology (back in the day), but in more generic Petrov Model terminology, I prefer to call it what Dave Butler calls it - the fully elastic stretch position (or something like that). This position is significant in that it's the end of the "stretch" and the beginning of the "downswing" (as PVDaddy is quite rightly pointing out).

The swing leg foot is high behind the buttocks at this frame. Press play. Notice that as the pole continues to coil forward, the bottom hand continues to extend forward with the coil (In my opinion this action fully complies with Petrov's philosophy of "move the pole always").

Yes, the pole continues to roll forward (and simultaneously "coil"). Yes, the bottom hand moves with the pole. It HAS to move with the pole, since Bubka is holding onto it!

At this point, my focus is on what the TRAIL LEG is doing - not what the bottom arm is doing. It's actually the trail leg being driven vigorously down and forward that "moves the pole always". The uninitiated might focus on the bottom hand - possibly because that's directly connected to the pole. However, even though the trail leg is the furthest body part from the pole, THAT''S what is rolling the pole forwards.

It's also BENDING THE POLE more (adding more energy into the system), without impeding the natural swinging action of the entire body around the top hand pendulum.

I strongly beleive that the emphasis (and the vaulter's intent - which is what a good coach should be instilling to aspiring vaulters) should be on the vigorous action of the trail leg. That's ACTIONABLE and not the least bit passive. Focussing on the bottom arm (and trying to do something "unnatural" and "passive" with it) loses the focus on the trail leg action, and also IMPEDES the natural swinging action of the full body.

Notice that the swing foot moves foward in a downward arc to a position directly pointing at the pit at a 45 degree angle.

But I'm not sure about the 45 degree angle. That's something that you might observe by watching a vid. It's certainly not anything to explain to a vaulter. From a vaulter's perspective, this point is significant in that it's where the body is straight, and (roughly) where the body passes the chord. You can FEEL that because after the pole passes the chord, it's not longer bending - it's REcoiling.

Notice at this point Bubka has also completed the forward extension of the bottom hand.

The forward roll of the pole has turned into a sideways bend - very close to a full bend. It's incidental (and not at all important) that his bottom hand has stopped moving forward - that's only because he's holding onto the pole.

The more interesting and more significant aspect of this frame (where the trail leg passes the chord of the pole) is that the downswing is complete, and the vigor with which he whipped his trail leg throughout the downswing is now complete.

I choose to call this the downswing portion of the swing because the downswing foot has moved from an elevated position to a lower position

For the record, I first introduced the word "downswing" in reference to a vault part in my Bryde Bend thread in 2008. Master (John A) first mentioned it in 2006, but only in reference to a gymnast's downswing on a highbar or rings. So I think I'm entitled to clarifying the defintion of the word "downswing" - sinced I coined it. It's the part of the swing from the "full elastic stretch" to when the trail leg is directly in line with the rest of the body (roughly when the body passes the chord of the pole).

I sure hope PVDaddy's not laying claim to coining this word! I'm just thankful that he's using the word correctly!

Many refer to this fully extended leg as" the Active-I".

I think I remember PVDaddy use the term "Active-I" before, but it doesn't ring a bell with me outside of his mentions of it. The "I" position, or the "Inverted-I position" is a term that I"m more familiar with - I used that term back in the day, and I think it's still used today to describe the position where you're upside down on the pole, with a straight body. Since there can be confusion between this "Inverted-I" position and the so-called "Active-I" position, I'm not particularly fond of the term "Active-I", and I don't think it's a word that's necessary. I don't know who the "many" are that refer to this term, but I don't think it's very descriptive. If someone can convince me of the importance of the "Active" part of the term, then I might change my mind on this, but for now, I don't get it.

I like that term ' Active-I" because I feel this is where the downswing now transitions from the downswing to the upswing and the abs become fully engaged (Active) to continue the swing against the forces of gravity and as the vaulter breaks at the hips an active pulling action (active) with both arms also occurs.

"Pulling action"? As in "rowing"? Yikes! Actually, if the downswing is vigorous enough, there's very little work for the abs to do at this point. YOU DON'T HAVE TO ROW! The breaking of the hips (and for some vaulters, the shortening by bending of the trail leg) at this point is what causes the entire body to rotate/invert - with very little action needed by the abs or arms at all (if done right - as per Bubka)!

So to characterize this whipping action (breaking of the hips action) as an "Active" action of the abs is quite misleading - and the wrong thing for aspiring vaulters to focus on. Instead, IMHO they should focus on whipping the trail leg (and not worry about what the abs and arms are doing).

I believe that from a physics and biomechanical position this is the ideal time to pull.

No! The PULL should NOT start until the body is full extended in the Inverted-I position! Keep the arms straight (by just hanging onto the pole and NOT pulling) until you extend your body fully upwards. It is only at the END of the extenstion of the entire body (to the Inverted-I) that you should begin to pull with the arms.

There's a few reasons for this, the main one being that the back muscles that you use to extend your body are stronger than your arm muscles. So they should be used first. That will get you propelling in the right direction (upwards). This is very similar to the same concept in the javelin - first the legs, then the body and back, and THEN the arms.

Another good reason is that as soon as you start pulling with the arms, you will inevitably start flagging out - instead of continuing your upwards extension.

There is also a tendency for aspiring vaulters to turn their body (twisting over the bar) instead of continuing upwards. An emphasis on extending the body by using the back muscles only (without turning or pulling yet) will delay the turn and get you higher before you turn. As soon as you start pulling and turning, you'll start flagging - so delay it!

Kirk

[VaultMarq26]

Thank you Kirk for spending the time to clarify your stance. That is one of the more clear explanations I have read in a long time!

[PVDaddy]

I believe the first time I heard the term downswing was from Kirk. Like Kirk I like the term as I believe it helps the student of the vault to disect the vault more fully and to understand the important components that should take place during the various stages. Of course the swing is one continious motion and outside of remaining elastic and not pulling or pushing during penetration like Kirk I believe is one of the most important phases of the vault and contributes to the pole rotating to vertical as iI hadmentioned inmy previous post. So the emphasis must always be on the whip. The first time I heard the term active-I was from Brian Clymer. This position describes when the leg is fully extended with the heal pointed toward the pit and the body is straight. Unlike Kirk I still believe that a forward and upward extension of the bottom hand contributes to the speed of the downswing leading up to this position and is the subject of this thread. Petrov makes reference to this in his model were he says something like the swing is insured through the active extension of the bottom hand. The pull that I am describing takes place well after this position and is mostly through the shoulders and occurs as the vaulter breaks at the hips and is entering what I call the rocked back position.

[KirkB]

... Petrov's philosophy of "move the pole always").

Here's something else to think about - something that I haven't written much about yet ...

I take Petrov's philosophy of "move the pole always" as much more than just keeping the pole rolling towards vertical.

I think his philosophy also includes "moving the BODY always" as well, and I think this is what PVDaddy is saying too.

So what does it mean to "move the BODY"?

I take it to mean moving both FORWARDS and UPWARDS - ALWAYS.

First the FORWARDS. Yes, move FORWARDS - as the pole rolls forwards to vertical. It's the CHORD of the pole that moves forwards ALWAYS. The chord of the pole is the straight line between the top hand and the butt of the pole in the box. This is the line to focus on. It's best visualized by just watching the top hand. If the top hand is moving forwards, then you can be assured that the CHORD of the pole is rolling forwards - towards vertical.

Do NOT focus on whether or not the bottom hand is moving forwards. That hand does NOT represent the top of the CHORD. In fact, as the bend of the pole transitions from a forwards bend to a sideways bend, observation of the bottom hand will give you the optical illusion that the roll of the pole is slowing down faster than it really is. This is because as the pole bends sideways, the top hand catches up to the bottom hand from the perspective of moving forwards towards the box. Why? Only because of the sideways bending of the pole.

The other aspect of this chicken and egg issue of whether the pole moves the body forwards or whether the body moves the pole forwards (directly relevant to the title of the title of this thread) is this ...

Some pundits say that based on physics, once the takeoff foot leaves the ground, any actions of the bottom arm (as well as the trail leg and all other body parts) do NOT change the speed or direction of the roll of the vauter-pole SYSTEM. They claim that the roll is pre-determined and nothing you do once your foot leaves the ground is going to change it.

I'm not convinced of this. Taking the most extreme scenario, if the vaulter does something really silly, like purposely block out with the bottom arm and keeping his legs low and NOT swinging, this will definitely slow down the roll of the pole substantially. So if the extreme scenario is true, then the less extreme scenarios of blocking out and laying low JUST A LITTLE BIT must also be true, right? What I AM convinced of is that any forwards pressure (upwards pressure is OK) with the bottom arm - even in the slightest - will slow down the body movement relative to the pole movement.

So if the difference between winning or losing is measured in millimetres, then that difference might be because of any slight body manipulation (blocking or delaying) that prevents the valuter-pole system to not move FORWARDS and UPWARDS in the most optimal way.

The other important aspect of this is that is that blocking or delaying will make it more difficult (but not impossible, as proven by some very good elite vaulters) to invert the body into the optimal position to extend directly up (as Charlie says, shoot up like an arrow).

Now the UPWARDS. This is quite straight forward, and I HAVE posted about this in the past. So has Agapit and DJ - which is where I got the epiphany from re the flaw in my technique (bending the pole too much and delaying too much in the C - instead of ALWAYS keeping the body moving UPWARDS). So I think Petrov had this concept in mind too. When he says "move the pole always", I think he also means "move the body UPWARDS always".

This also means moving SMOOTHLY upwards, rather than delaying the "shoot" and then suddenly "shooting". Based on the laws of physics, the most economical way for the body to fight gravity is SMOOTHLY - not SUDDENLY. Any lack of upward body movement (in a frame-by-frame analysis) needs to be closely scrutinized.

So there you have it. Not only move the POLE always, but also move the body FORWARDS and UPWARDS always!

Kirk

[KirkB]

There is ONE way in which pressing forwards with the bottom arm will move the pole forwards (and roll it to vertical).

By pressing forwards, you will bend the pole more, and this will shorten the chord. The shorter the chord, the faster the pole will roll to vertical.

This is also true if you swing your trail leg vigorously during the downswing. This will also shorten the chord, which will speed up the roll of the pole to vertical.

HOWEVER, bottom arm pressure will not only bend the pole more, but it will ALSO slow down the vaulter's swing. This in turn means that the vaulter's body won't be swinging forwards and upwards as quickly as it could and should. For this reason, I strongly recommend AGAINST any pressure whatsovever with the bottom arm. Yes, you should stretch/push your top hand upwards as high as possible during the plant, takeoff, and throughout the downswing, but if you want an optimal swing, you should NOT apply any forwards or upwards pressure with the bottom arm.

Contrary to some folklore, pressing (or pressure of any kind) with the bottom arm is not necessary to make the pole bend.

In contrast to bending the pole and shortening the chord of the pole with the bottom arm, you can bend it and shorten the chord simply by your trail leg action. The longer the trail leg, and the stronger and faster the downswing, the more the pole will bend. The more the pole bends by this vigorous action, the shorter the chord and thus the quicker the pole will roll to vertical. In fact, it will speed up your entire vault. Your body will not only move FORWARDS faster, it will also move UPWARDS faster.

Why? Because the faster you whip your trail leg thru the downswing, the faster your UPSWING will be, propelling you upwards at a surprising speed! And the more you whip your trail leg, the more potential energy you're putting into the pole, which is returned to your body's propulsion as the pole recoils. And the more you whip your trail leg, the bigger the pole that you can get on, returning even MORE propulsion to your body as the pole recoils!

So what's the difference between bending the pole with your trail leg versus bending it with the bottom arm? With the bottom arm, your natural swing is interupted, making it harder for you to invert. With the trail leg emphasized in the downswing, there is nothing impeding your natural body swing, so you will swing past the pole to inversion earlier, more powerfully, and SMOOTHER! What's the advantage of a SMOOTHER swing/inversion? See my earlier post.

It's all in the DOWNSWING!

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

Like Kirk I fully believe the downswing is the most important part of the swing ( IT IS WERE THE ENERGY IS GENERATED IN THE SWING! Why? Because it is were you are coming out of the full body coil position of the Inverted-C into your power point. Just like the golf swing!)

I believe that as Kirk begins to read and study from other authors much more experienced than myself, he will begin to except and even use the term Active-I. I strongly disagree with Kirk stance that this position is insignificant and does not need to be pointed out to the vaulter!

The Active-I position is the most critical point of the swing in causing the pole to rotate to vertical! Why? Two reasons. Remember in physics class that longer levers deliver more power? Angular momentum equals Mass X Velocity X Radius (length of the lever). It is critical to explain to the vaulter that they should extend their heal (elongate the leg) toward the pit as much as possible to lengthen the lever. The most elongated position occurs at Active-I. Like I have previously mentioned and Kirk has recently mentioned, this angular momentum helps to roll the pole toward vertical. But something more beneficial occurs from the Active-I position to cause the pole to roll toward vertical! When you transfer from the Active-I position and break at the hips to the L-position the velocity of your rotation increases a forward pressure is created at the top hand causing the pole to rotate even faster! This is not true for the vaulter who blocks, rows or pulls prior to breaking at the hips. Thank-You Brian Clymer for bringing this to light!

[grandevaulter]

Do you mean "Swing to the cord of the pole" ?

[KirkB]

There is ONE way in which pressing forwards with the bottom arm will move the pole forwards (and roll it to vertical). ...

To be clear, I believe that the ONLY way in which pressing forwards with the bottom arm will move the pole forwards (once the takeoff foot leaves the ground) is by shortening the length of the chord.

Any other manipulation of the vaulter-pole system does not move the entire SYSTEM (vaulter+pole) forwards. How can it? It ONLY changes the positions of the body and the pole relative to each other.

Based on physics principles, this should be 100% true as stated in my quoted post. The only contradiction to this would be due to SLOWING DOWN the roll of the pole, as I explained.

When you transfer from the Active-I position and break at the hips to the L-position the velocity of your rotation increases a forward pressure is created at the top hand causing the pole to rotate even faster!

Roughly at the time that you break at the hips (a few milleseconds later - perhaps in less time that a single vid frame can show), the pole begins to recoil. As the pole recoils, the chord begins to lengthen. As the chord lengthens, the speed at which the pole rotates to vertical will DESCREASE.

It would be great if Brian Clymer could contribute to this thread.

Kirk

[altius]

It would be great if Brian Clymer could contribute to this thread.

Indeed it would.

[PVDaddy]

Kirk wrote:

Roughly at the time that you break at the hips (a few milleseconds later - perhaps in less time that a single vid frame can show), the pole begins to recoil. As the pole recoils, the chord begins to lengthen. As the chord lengthens, the speed at which the pole rotates to vertical will DESCREASE.

Kirk, based on my observation and also confirmed on other post, when the whip leg passes the pole just after the chord (What I and others term active-I) the chord of the pole is actually at its shortest length. I find it very strange that you are saying that the Chord of the pole is large between these parameters when in fact it is at shortest point!

From my studies of Clymer, I believe to some up much of it, he is saying that at that point between Active-I and the beginning of the UPSWING you find the ideal location to transfer the kinetic energy generated from the all mighty downswing into the ensured forward roll of the pole. In other words it is the proper point and angle to strike the tangent of the circle and set it in motion. I think of it as the sweet spot! Like in golfing. So you see, Active-I is the sweet spot! I will teach my vaulters (I was just recently offered a College coaching position) to think of kicking a field goal and think of the pit as the point of contact to the ball.

Clymer also makes it clear, that pulling or rowing slows down the connection between C-I and I totally agree and based on your post you do as well As many do. Of course the subject matter is whether the vaulter should make a concious effort extend the bottom hand. From my perspective no one has summed this subject up better than Kyle Ellis:

I never post on here anymore. I will join the dark side since two posters don't believe in moving away from the bottom arm with the swing.
Lavellinie performs the bottom arm function more correctly than Walker, it should appear to be on fluid motion like Bubka's. You shouldn't be able to see two parts -a push and pull like you see in Walkers. I think he is pushing to much into the pole, that is not the goal.
Once you finish you are swinging and the bottom arm is pushing away, not necissarily into the pole. Once your trail leg and shoulders rotate to a certain point it should take you right into a pulling action. It's really a whole body action.
What's the point of this? The left arm pushing away can increase the speed of the shoulders dropping away and the hips rising above the shoulders. You also will be able to load the pole more, since you are making yourself as long as possible.

People who perform this correctly you will see them getting extended up a bending pole very fast and the hips never stop moving.

Kyle, your above bolded statement in regards to how it helps the drop the drop of the shoulders and the hips to rise was an epiphany moment for me Thank-You!
You also confirmed what I previously stated that it also makes the swing more powerful because it makes it longer
Another point that I have made is that also maintains pressure on the what I have termed the full body coil out of the reverse-C " ) " as the C transitions to the Active-I.

Kirk: You yourself say that you agree that two of the better vaulters of the world are exploiting this, but, yet you refuse to see it in Bubka's vault? Sigh!

In closing,I agree with Kyle that none of them are exploiting this forward extension (Which is Not a block or push but a forward extension) as well or correctly as Bubka.

Yes I agree, I wish Clymer would come back! I rank him among some of the newest pioneers of the sport. I also would love to have Ellis come back!

[KirkB]

Kirk wrote:

Roughly at the time that you break at the hips (a few milleseconds later - perhaps in less time that a single vid frame can show), the pole begins to recoil. As the pole recoils, the chord begins to lengthen. As the chord lengthens, the speed at which the pole rotates to vertical will DESCREASE.

Kirk, based on my observation and also confirmed on other post, when the whip leg passes the pole just after the chord (What I and others term active-I) the chord of the pole is actually at its shortest length.

Yes, that's correct. That's what I'm saying too. The chord will be shortest SLIGHTLY after the downswing is complete (the top hand, body, and trail leg are all aligned). The slight latency is due to the "bouncing" of the pole immediately after the force applied to it during the downswing.

I find it very strange that you are saying that the Chord of the pole is large between these parameters when in fact it is at shortest point!

I don't know which part of my quote you think implies that "the chord of the pole is large between these paramaters ...". I'm not saying that at all!

With such a huge misunderstanding at the top of your post, I can only assume that the rest of your post also has huge misunderstandings.

Kirk