pushing back out during the swing?

[coachjvinson]

no stretch just yet as the pole is just beginning to load...
14'10" grip TO 13' mid 51 from 7Ls 96'

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this is literally the very next frame in 30fps

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currently, we are cueing a stronger drive knee into the takeoff and an intentional trail leg swing from short runs - if you cannot have precise and deliberate technique from shorts, you will be inconsistant at best from fulls...

The feedback from the vaulter is that a hip extension, post take off is the key ingredient to initiating a purposeful and forceful trail leg swing - when the trail leg hip is extended forward, the trail leg swing naturally follows

There is no "pushing back out during the swing" in this vaulter currently... strong grip in the bottom hand yes, push no...

I suspect that when the drive knee and the hip extension in the take off are improved with a continued strong grip in the bottom hand, followed by a purposeful and forceful trail leg swing... THEN

there will be a more efficient loading of the pole as a result and there will be room for the bottom hand to "grow through the pole" as a result...

I am not stating that this is the "Holy Grail of Correctness and Technical Perfection"...
I am stating that this is where we are at in our camp currently and my thoughts about such...
thoughtful replies appreciated...

[KirkB]

... a purposeful and forceful trail leg swing ...

Nice!

Kirk

[coachjvinson]

swing was passive to get to this position - vault could be characterized by a good free take off followed by a "hang and tuck" to load the pole and get hips above shoulders...

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top end of the vault...

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standard placements and bar clearances have been plagued by inconsistent pole speed...

Forgive me as I understand that this is not a vaulter that has "advanced technique"... hopefully I will be able to post side by side comparisons as we work to transform an athletic and brave vaulter with 6 years of "hang/tuck" style to a vaulter with a more purposeful and consistent technique and style...
V

[KirkB]

... does not the full body whip happen automatically and occur naturally after the shoulder girdles come to a stop (Arrest), as you load the full body coil and the pole during penetration? Do you even have to think about it, or time it? ...

No! If it happened "naturally", then it would be passive - even bordering on lackadaisical! It's a cognizant, extremely vigorous ACTION that is initiated by the stretching back-and-down and swinging/hinging of the trail leg.

You think about it on the highbar when you first learn this technique, and then it becomes rather automatic after tens of thousands of reps. And then once you move to the runway, it is quite automatic - but you force it to be as quick as possible, with taut muscles.

I was going to say you don't "time it", other than popping out immediately when you hit the C. But rethinking the "timing" of it, yes, I guess it is "timed". That is, it's such a short split second that you do it IMMEDIATELY when you hit the C. But yes, that really is "timed" in that there is a rhythm or cadence to it - it's pretty much an exact amount of time after takeoff. I can't quote the number of milliseconds that is, but it is something that you just "feel". And the point is that you just do it all as rapidly as you can once you take off.

It's kind of a bounce - when your top hand hits, the pole bends and you drive your chest forwards. Then you "bounce" the chest immediately back again, whilst your trail leg immediately starts the downswing.

Note that this is different than NO STRETCH into the C, and it's also different than a FULL STRETCH WITH A SLIGHT PAUSE into the C. It's halfway in-between - A FULL STRETCH but NO PAUSE. Yes, this is possible! I was even able to do this on a 9-step run. On a 21-step run, you just do the same action, but it does take a few milliseconds longer, since your grip is a bit higher.

But honestly, don't try to learn this on a pole. You MUST learn it on a highbar.

Kirk

[coachjvinson]

when the trail leg hip is extended forward, the trail leg swing naturally follows

wanted to clarify this... the trail leg swing is "initiated" naturally when the vaulter extends/presses the hips forward/fully post take off...

I do suspect that this is the result of an error correction in that the triple extension of the ankle, knees and hips in the takeoff was incomplete prior to this...

now that the hips are more completely and fully extended, there is a stretch reflex that the vaulter is readily noticing which is helping to initiate the "deliberate and forceful" trail leg swing...

"00.02"
V

[PVDaddy]

Kirk I was not referring to the entire swing. after penetration. I agree with you that a conscious effort most be made to make the entire whip swing as strong and vigorous as possible! I was referring to the initiation of that swing after the shoulder girdles are arrested and the full body coil is loaded. Does not the stretch-reflex action of the entire body coil occur naturally and automatically and the swing is therefore self initiated. My thought was that if it is and you just let nature run its course you would not have to be concerned with timing it. I believe you have also answered that in your reply and say that it is not, but must be timed, as learned from countless high bar swing drills.

[coachjvinson]

Does not the stretch-reflex action of the entire body coil occur naturally and automatically and the swing is therefore self initiated. My thought was that if it is and you just let nature run its course you would not have to be concerned with timing it. I believe you have also answered that in your reply and say that it is not, but must be timed, as learned from countless high bar swing drills.

While Kirk can certainly answer questions directed at him, I would state that if there is not a deliberate and definite action to initiate the swing from the stretched position, the un-stretching/"stretch reflex" as a natural reaction is not enough on it's own and will result in a "hang" delay and a slow swing and inversion which is late...

If the swing is initiated too soon... well that's another problem entirely...
V

[PVDaddy]

Coachjvinson: The feedback from the vaulter is that a hip extension, post take off is the key ingredient to initiating a purposeful and forceful trail leg swing - when the trail leg hip is extended forward, the trail leg swing naturally follows

Coach, just to clarify. Are you emphasizing here that the drive of the swing leg should be made through the hip joint? In other words swing the thigh IE. femur?

[coachjvinson]

Coachjvinson: The feedback from the vaulter is that a hip extension, post take off is the key ingredient to initiating a purposeful and forceful trail leg swing - when the trail leg hip is extended forward, the trail leg swing naturally follows

Coach, just to clarify. Are you emphasizing here that the drive of the swing leg should be made through the hip joint? In other words swing the thigh IE. femur?

this is what is being communicated to me by this vaulter from the pics above...

So interpreting both second hand and from my observations.... I suspect...

that with a better emphasis of the drive knee and thigh (more knee lift than pictured)...
that the vaulter is getting a better and more complete triple extension, specifically in the hips as his knee and ankle extension in the first pic are pretty solid...

The result, I suspect...
Is that he is getting a better eccentric thigh/quad contraction (stretched elongated thigh/quad muscle) which is producing a noticeable and significant advantage in initiating a forceful trail leg swing as compared to his previous methods as pictured above...

Prior to this, he was having trouble translating the swing mechanics from the bar and the rings to the vault... specifically, the trail leg swing/whip kick...

Last week he was moving a 13'3 grip (kicking a 15' bungee+/-) from 2Ls on a 13'7 (18.0) which is equal to his body weight #160...
The only way for him to effectively do this was with a powerful and intentional trail leg swing...

any movement or misplaced timing and the vault system would come to an immediate halt as there was very little run energy to move the pole past vertical...

keep in mind that this is commenting on the leg action of the swing and that we are not monitoring the shoulder actions specifically although we do train on rings and bars... right now we are just trying to polish a finished takeoff and develop technique and momentum from the trail leg swing to assist the shoulders with a more effortless swing and inversion...

I hope that is helpful, let me know if I can clarify... I have a bunch of old video and pics of the older technique and when I have new video I will post some side by side for comparison...
All thoughtful comments, suggestions and critiques are welcome...
V

[KirkB]

...
The only way form him to effectively do this was with a powerful and intentional trail leg swing...

any movement or misplaced timing and the vault system would come to an immediate halt as there was very little run energy to move the pole past vertical ...

Exactly! This is exactly what I experienced too!

Coach Vinson, I think we are saying the same things, just different words.

I will have more time to comment later, in direct reply to PVDaddy's questions.

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

Coachjvinson: The feedback from the vaulter is that a hip extension, post take off is the key ingredient to initiating a purposeful and forceful trail leg swing - when the trail leg hip is extended forward, the trail leg swing naturally follows

So base on your last post, did you mean to say in your original above statement When the drive knee hip is extended forward?

[coachjvinson]

Coachjvinson: The feedback from the vaulter is that a hip extension, post take off is the key ingredient to initiating a purposeful and forceful trail leg swing - when the trail leg hip is extended forward, the trail leg swing naturally follows

So base on your last post, did you mean to say in your original above statement When the drive knee hip is extended forward?

great question...
will take me just a bit to get back to you on this but I do have an interesting answer; the correctness of which is another matter entirely and remains to be seen!)