What’s the deal with Pole Carry?
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altius
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Re: What’s the deal with Pole Carry?
Three in a row -amazing! Has everyone caught David Butlers rant about college coaches on Facebook?? No ifs buts or maybes - he said it!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden
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PV2020
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Re: What’s the deal with Pole Carry?
The high school coach criticizing comment was slightly referring to your continued bashing of charlie. However that is for another topic.
I did see Butler's comment. And as much as we would like that, it will never happen. NCAA already allows an extra volunteer for pole vault, and no other events are allowed that.
The reason pole vault will never get its own paid coach is simple, no other event gets one.
Pole Vault and Javelin are a lot a like. They are the two events in which are the step-child of their event group. Pole vault is technically a jump, but there is far more to go into it. They are the two events in which the typical "thrower" or ''jumper'' does not do. A lot of programs have guys who throw shot, discus, and hammer. Or long jump, high jump, and triple jump. But rarely do you see that javelin thrower who does any of the other three throws, in the same way you do not see a large number of pole vaulters participating in the other jumps. Although a few do in both cases, but not many.
The above paragraph being said. Jump's coaches have to coach three jumps that are different techniques. High jump is no like long jump. And throws coaches sometimes have to coach three different techniques or even four in the throws. There are college throws coaches that may have been elite level hammer throwers that were horrible at shot put, but they turn out to be very good all around throws coaches. This is what has to happen in the vault.
If the NCAA were to allow an extra paid coach just for pole vault it would be like them telling everybody else that the pole vault is special obviously harder to learn to coach than the other events.
We as pole vaulters, and pole vault coaches may believe this to be true, but no one is ever going to get that rule passed.
***The way to have more elite level pole vault coaches at the college level is for the good pole vault coaches to invest their time learning about the other jumps. When a college vaulter decides they want to go on and coach at the college level, they need to work on more than becoming just a good pole vault coach. They have to work on becoming a good jumps coach! To make it as a pole vault coach as a pole vaulter you have to learn all the jumps, or something else like throws or coach the multi events.
Pole vaulters have to stop thinking they are special and should get better treatment. Although it is a dangerous event and it might should get more attention, that is not going to happen, so everyone needs to turn to plan B and find the best way to work within the system.
I did see Butler's comment. And as much as we would like that, it will never happen. NCAA already allows an extra volunteer for pole vault, and no other events are allowed that.
The reason pole vault will never get its own paid coach is simple, no other event gets one.
Pole Vault and Javelin are a lot a like. They are the two events in which are the step-child of their event group. Pole vault is technically a jump, but there is far more to go into it. They are the two events in which the typical "thrower" or ''jumper'' does not do. A lot of programs have guys who throw shot, discus, and hammer. Or long jump, high jump, and triple jump. But rarely do you see that javelin thrower who does any of the other three throws, in the same way you do not see a large number of pole vaulters participating in the other jumps. Although a few do in both cases, but not many.
The above paragraph being said. Jump's coaches have to coach three jumps that are different techniques. High jump is no like long jump. And throws coaches sometimes have to coach three different techniques or even four in the throws. There are college throws coaches that may have been elite level hammer throwers that were horrible at shot put, but they turn out to be very good all around throws coaches. This is what has to happen in the vault.
If the NCAA were to allow an extra paid coach just for pole vault it would be like them telling everybody else that the pole vault is special obviously harder to learn to coach than the other events.
We as pole vaulters, and pole vault coaches may believe this to be true, but no one is ever going to get that rule passed.
***The way to have more elite level pole vault coaches at the college level is for the good pole vault coaches to invest their time learning about the other jumps. When a college vaulter decides they want to go on and coach at the college level, they need to work on more than becoming just a good pole vault coach. They have to work on becoming a good jumps coach! To make it as a pole vault coach as a pole vaulter you have to learn all the jumps, or something else like throws or coach the multi events.
Pole vaulters have to stop thinking they are special and should get better treatment. Although it is a dangerous event and it might should get more attention, that is not going to happen, so everyone needs to turn to plan B and find the best way to work within the system.
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altius
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Re: What’s the deal with Pole Carry?
"The high school coach criticizing comment was slightly referring to your continued bashing of charlie. However that is for another topic."
No it is not for another topic! You stated that I was continually criticising high school coaches - I am waiting on the evidence -and the apology!
Re Charlie - reread my posts and you will find that I have immense respect for what he is doing. You will also note htta he wished me well when I was preparing for surgery. My doubts are simply about his claims to be teaching the Petrov model when he clearly is not -although I have to say that he is not alone in that. There are many who have never met Petrov, heard him speak nor read his papers, who claim to be employing his methods. That is a problem I have continually referred to because it wouldn't be allowed in any other profession; even more importantly if folk think that they already know all there is to know about Petrov's ideas they are highly unlikely to continue looking for the truth.
No it is not for another topic! You stated that I was continually criticising high school coaches - I am waiting on the evidence -and the apology!
Re Charlie - reread my posts and you will find that I have immense respect for what he is doing. You will also note htta he wished me well when I was preparing for surgery. My doubts are simply about his claims to be teaching the Petrov model when he clearly is not -although I have to say that he is not alone in that. There are many who have never met Petrov, heard him speak nor read his papers, who claim to be employing his methods. That is a problem I have continually referred to because it wouldn't be allowed in any other profession; even more importantly if folk think that they already know all there is to know about Petrov's ideas they are highly unlikely to continue looking for the truth.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden
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CoachEric
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Re: What’s the deal with Pole Carry?
Here's the evidence.
Your implication is that we are misinterpreting Petrov, while you presume to be the authority on the matter. Since we don't coach any national champions, we must not know what we're talking about.
I don't know exactly what you mean, and why you "can't excuse me," but it comes across as pretty rude. I'm assuming you are referring to my relationship with Butler. He was my coach a long time ago, we hold practices together, and we're working together on a website. I've got a pretty solid grasp of the vault because of the time I've spent with him and with several other excellent coaches who are leaders in their respective domains.
It's fine if you disagree with other coaches, but you shouldn't insult them, and you're not right just because you say you are.
Example: here you are sharing your opinion on the bottom arm:
And here's Petrov.
http://youtu.be/bMUQaWfAx48
26:25 his translator says, "It's very important to transfer the energy to the pole – left hand is straight, because through the left hand, the whole energy goes into the left hand and the pole starts moving"
You've also complained an awful lot about my use of the term "pole drop" and a one-arm pole drop drill that I recommended. Well, I got both the term and the drill from Butler, who got them from Petrov.
Here's Petrov demonstrating a drill for developing the skill of balancing the pole in the top hand while moving, in order to effectively eliminate the weight of the pole in the bottom hand. This is similar to the one-arm pole drop drill I recommended.
Altius, you've clearly had tremendous coaching success using your interpretation of Petrov. You're a pioneer in the field, and more than anyone else, you brought the Petrov model to the rest of the world. I don't think your model matches perfectly with Petrov, and I'm OK with that. I haven't aimed any of my writing at you out of disagreement, until now of course. Maybe your method is better for young athletes than Petrov's method, or my method, or Kirk's method. In fact, there are a couple areas where I explicitly disagree with Petrov – the initiation of the run, for example, because I also understand Pfaff. I also love DJ's mid mark chart too – great tool! – but not a Petrov tool!
You are free to share your opinion for the benefit of developing athletes and coaches – but if you insult them, they're going to get pissed off. So I don't think you're in a position to demand apologies.
We already have PV Daddy, Coacheric and Kirk pontificating on almost every aspect of the Petrov/McBryde technical model over the last few weeks when it is clear that between them they coach only a handful of athletes vaulting almost beginner heights.
Your implication is that we are misinterpreting Petrov, while you presume to be the authority on the matter. Since we don't coach any national champions, we must not know what we're talking about.
I can't excuse Coach Eric because for some reason I think he is riding on someone else's shirttails
I don't know exactly what you mean, and why you "can't excuse me," but it comes across as pretty rude. I'm assuming you are referring to my relationship with Butler. He was my coach a long time ago, we hold practices together, and we're working together on a website. I've got a pretty solid grasp of the vault because of the time I've spent with him and with several other excellent coaches who are leaders in their respective domains.
It's fine if you disagree with other coaches, but you shouldn't insult them, and you're not right just because you say you are.
Example: here you are sharing your opinion on the bottom arm:
IMHO the left arm should never be completely extended. several reasons for this. Al
And here's Petrov.
http://youtu.be/bMUQaWfAx48
26:25 his translator says, "It's very important to transfer the energy to the pole – left hand is straight, because through the left hand, the whole energy goes into the left hand and the pole starts moving"
You've also complained an awful lot about my use of the term "pole drop" and a one-arm pole drop drill that I recommended. Well, I got both the term and the drill from Butler, who got them from Petrov.
Here's Petrov demonstrating a drill for developing the skill of balancing the pole in the top hand while moving, in order to effectively eliminate the weight of the pole in the bottom hand. This is similar to the one-arm pole drop drill I recommended.
- Petrov Pole Drop.JPG (47.97 KiB) Viewed 10294 times
Altius, you've clearly had tremendous coaching success using your interpretation of Petrov. You're a pioneer in the field, and more than anyone else, you brought the Petrov model to the rest of the world. I don't think your model matches perfectly with Petrov, and I'm OK with that. I haven't aimed any of my writing at you out of disagreement, until now of course. Maybe your method is better for young athletes than Petrov's method, or my method, or Kirk's method. In fact, there are a couple areas where I explicitly disagree with Petrov – the initiation of the run, for example, because I also understand Pfaff. I also love DJ's mid mark chart too – great tool! – but not a Petrov tool!
You are free to share your opinion for the benefit of developing athletes and coaches – but if you insult them, they're going to get pissed off. So I don't think you're in a position to demand apologies.
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altius
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Re: What’s the deal with Pole Carry?
"We already have PV Daddy, Coacheric and Kirk pontificating on almost every aspect of the Petrov/McBryde technical model over the last few weeks when it is clear that between them they coach only a handful of athletes vaulting almost beginner heights."
That can't be taken as a criticism of "high school coaches" -it is a criticism of those three individuals -including yourself. As I understood it Kirk does not coach at high school.
I think you are misinterpreting Petrov's notion of the left arm - that is if you are talking about how it is moved as the athlete prepares to plant the pole. The fact is that it is physically impossible for the left arm to be extended straight at that point - that is if the right arm is vertical covering the ear and the grip is normal width. To get the right arm vertical and the left arm extended would take a much wider grip than Bubka ever used. Then again take a look at any Bubby vault and see that the left arm does not fully extend - because it can't. Markov over extended and he subsequently admitted that this was a technical fault.
I suspect that you will find that Petrov was actually demonstrating the weightless quality of the pole when it is carried almost vertically. I know he is not a great fan of one arm drills - because he actually believes that since the vault is always done with two hands -you should always use two hands in drills.
Appreciate your comments CoachERIC. I respect anyone prepared to give their time and energy coaching anything - read the dedication in BTB - I just think you were getting a bit beyond your level of expertise -as was PVDaddy - in your posts.
That can't be taken as a criticism of "high school coaches" -it is a criticism of those three individuals -including yourself. As I understood it Kirk does not coach at high school.
I think you are misinterpreting Petrov's notion of the left arm - that is if you are talking about how it is moved as the athlete prepares to plant the pole. The fact is that it is physically impossible for the left arm to be extended straight at that point - that is if the right arm is vertical covering the ear and the grip is normal width. To get the right arm vertical and the left arm extended would take a much wider grip than Bubka ever used. Then again take a look at any Bubby vault and see that the left arm does not fully extend - because it can't. Markov over extended and he subsequently admitted that this was a technical fault.
I suspect that you will find that Petrov was actually demonstrating the weightless quality of the pole when it is carried almost vertically. I know he is not a great fan of one arm drills - because he actually believes that since the vault is always done with two hands -you should always use two hands in drills.
Appreciate your comments CoachERIC. I respect anyone prepared to give their time and energy coaching anything - read the dedication in BTB - I just think you were getting a bit beyond your level of expertise -as was PVDaddy - in your posts.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden
Re: What’s the deal with Pole Carry?
First let me say in earnest , that I am estatic that Altus is getting well. He is a GREAT influence in coaching the vault, that being said, I DO NOT and have never said that I teach the petrof technique, and as i will get several rebuttles about what I am about to share!!1 I was a 6'tall 119 lb. senior in high school in 1961. Slow as a snail!!! Cleared 11'8" on a swedish steel pole and won the Virginia high school State Championship. Went on to continue to vault for fun and from 1975 to 19 85 was ranked # 1 in the world in sub masters and masters competition. Set 8 indoor and outdoor age group world records and won back to back Masters World Championships in Pureto Rico in 83 and Rome , Italy in 85with an all time World Championship record of 15'3" at 43 years old and that is something that can't EVER be taken away from me!!!!!I believe in David Johnstons mid chart and Kirk's inversion and extension up off the pole with NO TUCK. I DO teach a Ground level tall BENT ARM PRESS SUPPORT take off!!! That is mine and not Petrofs!!! Will continue do the same!!!!2013 53 State Champions in the last 6 years!! Unfortunately in the world we live in SUCCESS breeds envy!!! Wish It didn't!!!!!
Re: What’s the deal with Pole Carry?
First let me say in earnest , that I am estatic that Altus is getting well. He is a GREAT influence in coaching the vault, that being said, I DO NOT and have never said that I teach the petrof technique, and as i will get several rebuttles about what I am about to share!!1 I was a 6'tall 119 lb. senior in high school in 1961. Slow as a snail!!! Cleared 11'8" on a swedish steel pole and won the Virginia high school State Championship. Went on to continue to vault for fun and from 1975 to 19 85 was ranked # 1 in the world in sub masters and masters competition. Set 8 indoor and outdoor age group world records and won back to back Masters World Championships in Pureto Rico in 83 and Rome , Italy in 85with an all time World Championship record of 15'3" at 43 years old and that is something that can't EVER be taken away from me!!!!!I believe in David Johnstons mid chart and Kirk's inversion and extension up off the pole with NO TUCK. I DO teach a Ground level tall BENT ARM PRESS SUPPORT take off!!! That is mine and not Petrofs!!! Will continue do the same!!!!2013 53 State Champions in the last 6 years!! Unfortunately in the world we live in SUCCESS breeds envy!!! Wish It didn't!!!!!
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altius
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Re: What’s the deal with Pole Carry?
You didn't really have to post it twice Charlie -you made your point first time!!!!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden
Re: What’s the deal with Pole Carry?
charlie wrote:First let me say in earnest , that I am estatic that Altus is getting well. He is a GREAT influence in coaching the vault, that being said, I DO NOT and have never said that I teach the petrof technique, and as i will get several rebuttles about what I am about to share!!1 I was a 6'tall 119 lb. senior in high school in 1961. Slow as a snail!!! Cleared 11'8" on a swedish steel pole and won the Virginia high school State Championship. Went on to continue to vault for fun and from 1975 to 19 85 was ranked # 1 in the world in sub masters and masters competition. Set 8 indoor and outdoor age group world records and won back to back Masters World Championships in Pureto Rico in 83 and Rome , Italy in 85with an all time World Championship record of 15'3" at 43 years old and that is something that can't EVER be taken away from me!!!!!I believe in David Johnstons mid chart and Kirk's inversion and extension up off the pole with NO TUCK. I DO teach a Ground level tall BENT ARM PRESS SUPPORT take off!!! That is mine and not Petrofs!!! Will continue do the same!!!!2013 53 State Champions in the last 6 years!! Unfortunately in the world we live in SUCCESS breeds envy!!! Wish It didn't!!!!!
Pole vaulters are a big family! No matter where you go in the world. I admire your success! I am a supporter of the event and all who strive to get that bar to inch up!
Cheers!
there is no spoon... www.m640.com
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grandevaulter
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Re: What’s the deal with Pole Carry?
Thanks for your story Charlie. I would much rather read about your past endeavors and Altius' aerobatics in a plane than a bunch of finger pointing ! It is a big family and it has interesting characters ! 
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PVDaddy
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Re: What’s the deal with Pole Carry?
Altius:
Yes its true I have no credentials in the pole vault world. I just started coaching (Just like you suggested Altius)! Yes it' true I only coach High School athletes (were else am I going to coach right now with my limited resume?) and their not all that great (I have a 12 foot Sophomore, a 12-6 Junior and a 13-6 Senior- At least not YET! But everyone is improving every day and I believe quite rapidly. In my eyes their GREAT! I see so much upside potential in ever one of them! Give me some time, I have only been at it a month and a half (Started Marc 28)! So should I pat myself on the back for the fact that we now have the best pole vault team the School has ever had i its 60 year History? Not even. I have much much higher goals for the future! My immediate goal is to take a kid (my nephew) out of oblivian and make him a State Placer (His dream). He has added 6 inches at every single meet since we started. Can we keep up that pace into States (If we qualify?) I dont know its gonna be tough? We have Regional tomorrow. I'm excited and a little nervous too.
Altius, in case you haven"t noticed I am as sold out on the Petrov/Bubka model as much as you are! I do not have the in depth knowlege of it as you do but I have only been studying it for 4 years in my spare time. But I have been working hard. Very hard! You should know that I am a great admirer of you and your GREAT success both as a coach and your contributions to the pole vault world through your books, videos and clinics. You are a mentor to me and most everyone else here. But what frustrates me so much is that when I share what I see as insights ( I may be wrong on some points, but, its what I see. All I'm looking for is open, honest debate in search for the truth) most times you won't even provide constructive feedback but say something to the fact that I am treating everyone as dumb bunnies on here and make reference to your Books. That is fine, they are excellent, but, don't you feel you are missing out on some wonderful opportunities to educate us all here and now while we have the opportunity to learn from you?
That being said, I do feel that I have contributed by raising some interesting points worthy of discussion and debate here on PVP? I'm sure I was incorrect on some of my analysis along the path of learning (Am I the only one?) But I am learning a great deal and I do feel that (From what I"m observing) that I at least have a depth of understanding of the vault on par with many of these college coaches and still stand behind most all of my recent post. Glad your getting healthy Altius, we need you. Please share more of your thought and ideas here with us we will still buy your books (Probably even more so if you will astound us with your wisdom more!) My ears are open for sure to anything you have to say. No disrespect to Agapit (He has some revolutionary ideas), l but to me, your the guy!
By the way you are correct beeing the toothless home collector here has inspired me. You call that an ego trip. I call it MOTIVATION!
I just think you were getting a bit beyond your level of expertise -as was PVDaddy - in your posts.
Yes its true I have no credentials in the pole vault world. I just started coaching (Just like you suggested Altius)! Yes it' true I only coach High School athletes (were else am I going to coach right now with my limited resume?) and their not all that great (I have a 12 foot Sophomore, a 12-6 Junior and a 13-6 Senior- At least not YET! But everyone is improving every day and I believe quite rapidly. In my eyes their GREAT! I see so much upside potential in ever one of them! Give me some time, I have only been at it a month and a half (Started Marc 28)! So should I pat myself on the back for the fact that we now have the best pole vault team the School has ever had i its 60 year History? Not even. I have much much higher goals for the future! My immediate goal is to take a kid (my nephew) out of oblivian and make him a State Placer (His dream). He has added 6 inches at every single meet since we started. Can we keep up that pace into States (If we qualify?) I dont know its gonna be tough? We have Regional tomorrow. I'm excited and a little nervous too.
Altius, in case you haven"t noticed I am as sold out on the Petrov/Bubka model as much as you are! I do not have the in depth knowlege of it as you do but I have only been studying it for 4 years in my spare time. But I have been working hard. Very hard! You should know that I am a great admirer of you and your GREAT success both as a coach and your contributions to the pole vault world through your books, videos and clinics. You are a mentor to me and most everyone else here. But what frustrates me so much is that when I share what I see as insights ( I may be wrong on some points, but, its what I see. All I'm looking for is open, honest debate in search for the truth) most times you won't even provide constructive feedback but say something to the fact that I am treating everyone as dumb bunnies on here and make reference to your Books. That is fine, they are excellent, but, don't you feel you are missing out on some wonderful opportunities to educate us all here and now while we have the opportunity to learn from you?
That being said, I do feel that I have contributed by raising some interesting points worthy of discussion and debate here on PVP? I'm sure I was incorrect on some of my analysis along the path of learning (Am I the only one?) But I am learning a great deal and I do feel that (From what I"m observing) that I at least have a depth of understanding of the vault on par with many of these college coaches and still stand behind most all of my recent post. Glad your getting healthy Altius, we need you. Please share more of your thought and ideas here with us we will still buy your books (Probably even more so if you will astound us with your wisdom more!) My ears are open for sure to anything you have to say. No disrespect to Agapit (He has some revolutionary ideas), l but to me, your the guy!
By the way you are correct beeing the toothless home collector here has inspired me. You call that an ego trip. I call it MOTIVATION!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.
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PVDaddy
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Re: What’s the deal with Pole Carry?
Wow Charlie that is absolutley amazing! I could only dream to be a tenth the Coach as you, Altius and many who post here!
Have you ever heard of my Grandfathers cousin Ralph Maxwell? He is holds the world record in the masters division (I think 90 and above?). He more than DOUBLED the world record for combined score in the Pentathalon! What is more impressive is that the only reason he started training is that he was for so long overweight and only trained for the pole vault for two years before he did it! If you look him up on youtube you can here him sing a little diddy he composed! He is so hilarious and is the finest fine Scotsman you will ever find! So Kirk please don't be insulted if Altius gets a little fun out of Putting a MC in your name (you may be Scottish for all I know?) and I think He's just havin a little fun with it!
Have you ever heard of my Grandfathers cousin Ralph Maxwell? He is holds the world record in the masters division (I think 90 and above?). He more than DOUBLED the world record for combined score in the Pentathalon! What is more impressive is that the only reason he started training is that he was for so long overweight and only trained for the pole vault for two years before he did it! If you look him up on youtube you can here him sing a little diddy he composed! He is so hilarious and is the finest fine Scotsman you will ever find! So Kirk please don't be insulted if Altius gets a little fun out of Putting a MC in your name (you may be Scottish for all I know?) and I think He's just havin a little fun with it!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.
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