What does the bottom arm do????
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KYLE ELLIS
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Re: What does the bottom arm do????
Altius, what makes you think he can provide any ground breaking insight?? I was hoping nobody would reply at all to his "Agenda 21", because it seemed to be a knock off of Romans 6.40 model.
On a whole new level 6-20-09
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altius
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Re: What does the bottom arm do????
Hope everyone appreciates that this is in haste!!!
You may be right but you have to give people a chance - you never know where the next gem will come from. You have been around long enough to remember the opprobrium when I introduced Petrovs concept of the free take off to this site - and certainly the furore when I raised the notion of a pre jump take off. What about the heated debate about Bubka himself – who many believed had only achieved his performances because he was a superman!!! Or the notion that it was impossible to add energy to the vaulter/pole system after the athlete left the ground They were fairly revolutionary issues but now I have the feeling that they are generally resolved.
Then the question of whether or not there is one best technical model – as I believe to be the case – has still not been resolved in the minds of many; some folk still cannot make the distinction between a technical model based on biomechanics and an athletes style. And of course there is the 640 model itself – it was not immediately taken up by everyone and probably never will be by some.
But the fact is we have seen discussion, debate and argument for years – and that is a healthy thing for a site like this.
However I am of the view that even if technical questions can be resolved they will not help produce another Bubka. One has to remember that he – like most athletes in the USSR at the time –were supported by the full might of the state and he was fortunate to meet a great coach at the right time. The biggest problem for US coaches is not that they don’t know enough – it is simply that they – and their athletes - do not enjoy the total support that Bubka had. In fact most appear to get no outside support at all – until they have won a gold medal of course and then the sponsors are interested.
However the reality is that I am not as interested in debates about the minutiae of technique as I am about how those elements of technique can best be developed. As you will see from the discussion below I believe some things can be learned – but they cannot be taught! An important notion derived from educational theory as well as observation of expert performance in many sports.
On the issue of what the bottom arm does I have already made my own position clear in two books!!! Folk tend to forget that while an opinion posted on pvp is ephemeral and - except for agapit's continuous chain - may be remembered only for week or two, a book is for ever! Your beliefs are locked in. But I am pretty sure some folk only buy the book to say they have it – they don’t read it or they would already know my opinion.
And on the topic of the bottom arm my view has only changed minimally as I debated with Roman about the issue over years - and some may recall - i wrote a mea culpa on pvp in which i pointed out that if we accept that vaulting on a flexible pole is virtually the same as vaulting on an infinite series of straight poles, then we have to accept that it is possible to accelerate the swing by pulling with the left arm.
The nub of the issue is the timing of that pull -in my dvd I stated clearly that the athlete swings on the pole -just as on a high bar - with NO pulling or pushing. My experience confirms that youngsters could transfer what they learned on the high bar directly to the pole – with no information or instruction provided after they had learned to swing effectively on the high bar. Which is why I believe that it is impossible to teach the pole vault efficiently and effectively without access to a high bar – a rope can be used – but it is not as efficient or effective.
So I am not as much interested in the theory of vault technique as I am about the application of that theory with young vaulters. From a practical coaching perspective I have had no reason to change my position from what I wrote in the first BTB – over ten years ago – even tho I now accept that there is ‘a pull’ at some point. There I wrote,
“The next element of Bubka’s technique is the initiation of the inversion. This is both difficult to explain and even more difficult to describe. This is because although there are clearly biomechanical factors involved, the movements and timing of the body parts are so subtle and complex that they appear to be performed intuitively rather than deliberately learned or trained. They seem to be dependent on what the athletes internal kinaesthetic – body feel – at that instant ‘tells them’ what to do.”
I saw no reason to change that statement for the second edition – for several reasons. First I was always trying to interpret Petrov’s ideas, and his basic philosophy is that if you get everything right at the take off the rest will look after itself! In fact the only thing I have found him writing on this issue is his statement that “It is worth noting here the stopping of the shoulders after the deep penetration ensures the drive of the hips upwards to the pole, through the active straightening of the left arm”. (New studies in athletics 19.3-32.2004) This is a simple application of biomechanics and makes sense. I have watched him coaching in both Italy and in OZ –including Adelaide – and he never made an issue of the bottom arm.
The Germans picked this notion up and talk about first disengaging the left arm immediately after take off –as can be seen in any sequence of Bubby – and then reengaging the left arm to initiate the inversion – this too can be see in film. Basically what Petrov was saying. But the timing must be intuitive – where my definition of intuition is “The distilled essence of past experience” in other words every take off is a happening, a one off, unique because of all of the variables such as take off speed and take off point, the quality of the run, plant and take off – even, as Petrov points out back to the first step. All influence the amount of energy in the system as the athlete leaves the ground – and all must influence what they do subsequently, so every vault is a one off – so it is virtually impossible for an athlete to THINK about what they are doing in the nanoseconds after take off and initiate the inversion. The body is intuitively, non consciously doing what it feels it must do at that instant –and even on occasions, pull out of the vault.
Finally – and I have mentioned this before on pvp. When I was skiing in France with Roman three years ago and we were discussing this issue AGAIN – which is why I get upset when folk imply that we are just sailing along in dogmatic ignorance – he told me that he had asked Bubby what he thought about in this phase. The response was “I RUN, I TAKE OFF AND THEN AAAAAAAAAAAAARGH”. In other words it was a non conscious/intuitive response that confirmed Petrov’s philosophy – or at least it did to me.
Then a few years ago at a clinic at Appalachian State, Roman tried to instruct athletes in how to invert on a rope by pulling – nobody could follow the instructions. I simply told them to swing up as fast as they could to get their feet as high up the rope as possible – without THINKING about anything except the result – they were able to do it and along the way they were almost certainly pulling with the bottom arm. An example of something that can be learned more easily than it can be taught. So how do you teach this element of technique? Well as I indicated a couple of years ago you don’t teach it – you give athletes the opportunity to learn how to do it by including repetitive vaulting on a stiff pole –from 6 – 8 steps in their training.
Oh and Kyle, don’t forget that Romans 6.40 model was a knock off/reinterpretation of Petrov’s model or at least a Soviet model!
KYLE ELLIS wrote:Altius, what makes you think he can provide any ground breaking insight?? I was hoping nobody would reply at all to his "Agenda 21", because it seemed to be a knock off of Romans 6.40 model.
You may be right but you have to give people a chance - you never know where the next gem will come from. You have been around long enough to remember the opprobrium when I introduced Petrovs concept of the free take off to this site - and certainly the furore when I raised the notion of a pre jump take off. What about the heated debate about Bubka himself – who many believed had only achieved his performances because he was a superman!!! Or the notion that it was impossible to add energy to the vaulter/pole system after the athlete left the ground They were fairly revolutionary issues but now I have the feeling that they are generally resolved.
Then the question of whether or not there is one best technical model – as I believe to be the case – has still not been resolved in the minds of many; some folk still cannot make the distinction between a technical model based on biomechanics and an athletes style. And of course there is the 640 model itself – it was not immediately taken up by everyone and probably never will be by some.
But the fact is we have seen discussion, debate and argument for years – and that is a healthy thing for a site like this.
However I am of the view that even if technical questions can be resolved they will not help produce another Bubka. One has to remember that he – like most athletes in the USSR at the time –were supported by the full might of the state and he was fortunate to meet a great coach at the right time. The biggest problem for US coaches is not that they don’t know enough – it is simply that they – and their athletes - do not enjoy the total support that Bubka had. In fact most appear to get no outside support at all – until they have won a gold medal of course and then the sponsors are interested.
However the reality is that I am not as interested in debates about the minutiae of technique as I am about how those elements of technique can best be developed. As you will see from the discussion below I believe some things can be learned – but they cannot be taught! An important notion derived from educational theory as well as observation of expert performance in many sports.
On the issue of what the bottom arm does I have already made my own position clear in two books!!! Folk tend to forget that while an opinion posted on pvp is ephemeral and - except for agapit's continuous chain - may be remembered only for week or two, a book is for ever! Your beliefs are locked in. But I am pretty sure some folk only buy the book to say they have it – they don’t read it or they would already know my opinion.
And on the topic of the bottom arm my view has only changed minimally as I debated with Roman about the issue over years - and some may recall - i wrote a mea culpa on pvp in which i pointed out that if we accept that vaulting on a flexible pole is virtually the same as vaulting on an infinite series of straight poles, then we have to accept that it is possible to accelerate the swing by pulling with the left arm.
The nub of the issue is the timing of that pull -in my dvd I stated clearly that the athlete swings on the pole -just as on a high bar - with NO pulling or pushing. My experience confirms that youngsters could transfer what they learned on the high bar directly to the pole – with no information or instruction provided after they had learned to swing effectively on the high bar. Which is why I believe that it is impossible to teach the pole vault efficiently and effectively without access to a high bar – a rope can be used – but it is not as efficient or effective.
So I am not as much interested in the theory of vault technique as I am about the application of that theory with young vaulters. From a practical coaching perspective I have had no reason to change my position from what I wrote in the first BTB – over ten years ago – even tho I now accept that there is ‘a pull’ at some point. There I wrote,
“The next element of Bubka’s technique is the initiation of the inversion. This is both difficult to explain and even more difficult to describe. This is because although there are clearly biomechanical factors involved, the movements and timing of the body parts are so subtle and complex that they appear to be performed intuitively rather than deliberately learned or trained. They seem to be dependent on what the athletes internal kinaesthetic – body feel – at that instant ‘tells them’ what to do.”
I saw no reason to change that statement for the second edition – for several reasons. First I was always trying to interpret Petrov’s ideas, and his basic philosophy is that if you get everything right at the take off the rest will look after itself! In fact the only thing I have found him writing on this issue is his statement that “It is worth noting here the stopping of the shoulders after the deep penetration ensures the drive of the hips upwards to the pole, through the active straightening of the left arm”. (New studies in athletics 19.3-32.2004) This is a simple application of biomechanics and makes sense. I have watched him coaching in both Italy and in OZ –including Adelaide – and he never made an issue of the bottom arm.
The Germans picked this notion up and talk about first disengaging the left arm immediately after take off –as can be seen in any sequence of Bubby – and then reengaging the left arm to initiate the inversion – this too can be see in film. Basically what Petrov was saying. But the timing must be intuitive – where my definition of intuition is “The distilled essence of past experience” in other words every take off is a happening, a one off, unique because of all of the variables such as take off speed and take off point, the quality of the run, plant and take off – even, as Petrov points out back to the first step. All influence the amount of energy in the system as the athlete leaves the ground – and all must influence what they do subsequently, so every vault is a one off – so it is virtually impossible for an athlete to THINK about what they are doing in the nanoseconds after take off and initiate the inversion. The body is intuitively, non consciously doing what it feels it must do at that instant –and even on occasions, pull out of the vault.
Finally – and I have mentioned this before on pvp. When I was skiing in France with Roman three years ago and we were discussing this issue AGAIN – which is why I get upset when folk imply that we are just sailing along in dogmatic ignorance – he told me that he had asked Bubby what he thought about in this phase. The response was “I RUN, I TAKE OFF AND THEN AAAAAAAAAAAAARGH”. In other words it was a non conscious/intuitive response that confirmed Petrov’s philosophy – or at least it did to me.
Then a few years ago at a clinic at Appalachian State, Roman tried to instruct athletes in how to invert on a rope by pulling – nobody could follow the instructions. I simply told them to swing up as fast as they could to get their feet as high up the rope as possible – without THINKING about anything except the result – they were able to do it and along the way they were almost certainly pulling with the bottom arm. An example of something that can be learned more easily than it can be taught. So how do you teach this element of technique? Well as I indicated a couple of years ago you don’t teach it – you give athletes the opportunity to learn how to do it by including repetitive vaulting on a stiff pole –from 6 – 8 steps in their training.
Oh and Kyle, don’t forget that Romans 6.40 model was a knock off/reinterpretation of Petrov’s model or at least a Soviet model!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden
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rainbowgirl28
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Re: What does the bottom arm do????
Alan I will send you PV Daddy's email address, perhaps you can continue your dialogue with him over that medium.
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altius
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Re: What does the bottom arm do????
This was not intended for him - but merely an attempt to clarify this issue for others who may be wondering about it........from my perspective alone!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden
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pistolpete6994
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Re: What does the bottom arm do????
I must say, I got quite a laugh from the whole "Agenda 21" and the ensuing debate.
The bottom arm;
I look at the bottom as critical to the success of the vault, even more so than the top. Why? So much is controlled by the bottom arm.
1. The bottom arm controls the bend in the pole, by "pushing", or rather driving, the bottom arm up through take off we as jumpers are able to achieve a high bend in the pole. And in my model (lets call it- "GOBing". Get Over the Bar.) this results in better swings, bigger poles, and higher bars.
2. It acts as a pivot point for the rest of the body to swing around, hopefully bringing the center of gravity over this hand prepared to shoot. (a note on this and is, I think, the major debate; It appears many feel the bottom arm "pulls" in the swing motion... I have never given this pull much thought- it just sorta happens, as has been mentioned before. To help my kids learn how to initiate the swing I use the analogy of driving the pole tip down into the box. Think of pushing your arms downward so that the force exerted on the pole follows the length of the pole pushing energy into the butt / down into the box, and at some point the elbow must break to continue the swing. Some may call this pulling, some pushing, some GOBing... but as coaches- aren't we just looking for the right phrase to get our athlete to complete a motion that we think is right. Does it really matter what it is called as long as we get the point across in a way that makes it happen?)
3. It initiates the pull turn as we begin shooting up the pole.
Why so much heated debate? (Agenda 21)
-Daddy was hurt to find out his idea, model, and philosophy was not new. In reality it was one that has circulated for some time in these forums and the polevault community as a whole. I appreciate his enthusiasm as a new, and (paraphrasing him) under-educated coach. We all were in his shoes once.
-As jabs (which began as critiques on strategy) were taken each felt they needed to defend "his side".
-However, for the majority of us, having such heated argument over the IDEAL model is a moot point- we will never coach the ideal athlete. Even those of us posting in the advanced forum (and possibly daddy was premature in his post in such a forum).
Advanced coaching moves past theory into the practical. As a coach let me make an analogy (ok, and teacher); In the field of education you can earn a doctoral degree two ways- a PHD and an EdD. A PHD is a doctor of philosophy, the theory, the ideal. An EdD on the other hand is a doctor of practice, hands on application.
What does this mean for our PV community? We will always have PHD's telling us the best way in an ideal situation. But those of us in the trenches, the doers, we must learn how to adapt the perfect model to each of our athletes. Make them perfect in their individual ways.
So lets apply my practical doctorate. I am a high school coach with a high level female (12'ish). Do I understand Agenda 21 and 6.40 models? yes. Can she do them? Not a shot. Right off the ground, she has absolutely ZERO bottom arm... In fact I think the bottom hand bumps her head after take off. Yet she still jumps high. She DOES have a free takeoff. She DOES swing well. She IS learning how to shoot and turn (correctly). (there are many areas for improvement, as anyone who vaults knows) Sure I could back up and push the issue on her left arm. But it is championship season and now is not the time- don't fix what aint broke. I MUST ADAPT TO HER.
Maybe in outdoor we can address her bottom arm... again.
*Maybe the next thread (maybe it already is); What moves a coach from beginner to intermediate to advanced? Is it the height of the bar or the number of successful landings in the pit? My vote is on the ladder.
Respectfully submitted for open review.
The bottom arm;
I look at the bottom as critical to the success of the vault, even more so than the top. Why? So much is controlled by the bottom arm.
1. The bottom arm controls the bend in the pole, by "pushing", or rather driving, the bottom arm up through take off we as jumpers are able to achieve a high bend in the pole. And in my model (lets call it- "GOBing". Get Over the Bar.) this results in better swings, bigger poles, and higher bars.
2. It acts as a pivot point for the rest of the body to swing around, hopefully bringing the center of gravity over this hand prepared to shoot. (a note on this and is, I think, the major debate; It appears many feel the bottom arm "pulls" in the swing motion... I have never given this pull much thought- it just sorta happens, as has been mentioned before. To help my kids learn how to initiate the swing I use the analogy of driving the pole tip down into the box. Think of pushing your arms downward so that the force exerted on the pole follows the length of the pole pushing energy into the butt / down into the box, and at some point the elbow must break to continue the swing. Some may call this pulling, some pushing, some GOBing... but as coaches- aren't we just looking for the right phrase to get our athlete to complete a motion that we think is right. Does it really matter what it is called as long as we get the point across in a way that makes it happen?)
3. It initiates the pull turn as we begin shooting up the pole.
Why so much heated debate? (Agenda 21)
-Daddy was hurt to find out his idea, model, and philosophy was not new. In reality it was one that has circulated for some time in these forums and the polevault community as a whole. I appreciate his enthusiasm as a new, and (paraphrasing him) under-educated coach. We all were in his shoes once.
-As jabs (which began as critiques on strategy) were taken each felt they needed to defend "his side".
-However, for the majority of us, having such heated argument over the IDEAL model is a moot point- we will never coach the ideal athlete. Even those of us posting in the advanced forum (and possibly daddy was premature in his post in such a forum).
Advanced coaching moves past theory into the practical. As a coach let me make an analogy (ok, and teacher); In the field of education you can earn a doctoral degree two ways- a PHD and an EdD. A PHD is a doctor of philosophy, the theory, the ideal. An EdD on the other hand is a doctor of practice, hands on application.
What does this mean for our PV community? We will always have PHD's telling us the best way in an ideal situation. But those of us in the trenches, the doers, we must learn how to adapt the perfect model to each of our athletes. Make them perfect in their individual ways.
So lets apply my practical doctorate. I am a high school coach with a high level female (12'ish). Do I understand Agenda 21 and 6.40 models? yes. Can she do them? Not a shot. Right off the ground, she has absolutely ZERO bottom arm... In fact I think the bottom hand bumps her head after take off. Yet she still jumps high. She DOES have a free takeoff. She DOES swing well. She IS learning how to shoot and turn (correctly). (there are many areas for improvement, as anyone who vaults knows) Sure I could back up and push the issue on her left arm. But it is championship season and now is not the time- don't fix what aint broke. I MUST ADAPT TO HER.
Maybe in outdoor we can address her bottom arm... again.
*Maybe the next thread (maybe it already is); What moves a coach from beginner to intermediate to advanced? Is it the height of the bar or the number of successful landings in the pit? My vote is on the ladder.
Respectfully submitted for open review.
To the moon!
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altius
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Re: What does the bottom arm do????
"We will always have PHD's telling us the best way in an ideal situation. But those of us in the trenches, the doers, we must learn how to adapt the perfect model to each of our athletes. Make them perfect in their individual ways."
I am not sure how many folk who post here regularly are PhDs - I suspect not many and I am certainly not one. However any coach worth his salt is continually searching for a better way to do things -so even when ideas are recycled it is still worth having a look at them - as I suggested in my post above. However I am not sure you did read that post carefully pistolpete or at all -perhaps you were too busy being amused.
I am certainly amused by the notion - oft repeated on pvp - that those of us who do look carefully at these issues are somehow not 'in the trenches, or doers" to coin a phrase. Note I am not accusing you of this PP. I suspect that dj for example, like myself, was coaching the pole vault long before many of those who visit pvp were born. That doesn't necessarily make us better in any way except of course it has given us the opportunity to make - and hopefully learn from - most of the mistakes that coaches are likely to make.
"What moves a coach from beginner to intermediate to advanced? Is it the height of the bar or the number of successful landings in the pit? My vote is on the ladder." Not sure what you meant by this - but my view would be that what matters is both the height of the bar AND a successful clearance to land on the pad. And some of us have seen literally hundreds of thousands of those landings over many years.
"Respectfully submitted for open review".[/quote] Pleased you added that because although overall I liked your post you were beginning to seem a bit bumptious. As to your girl and the issue of the left arm - take a look at 17 yo Lauren Eley either in BTB2 or on the dvd and you will exactly the issue you describe - and she was jumping 12'8" from 12 steps after two years as vaulter. Unfortunately??? she then went to medical school!
I am not sure how many folk who post here regularly are PhDs - I suspect not many and I am certainly not one. However any coach worth his salt is continually searching for a better way to do things -so even when ideas are recycled it is still worth having a look at them - as I suggested in my post above. However I am not sure you did read that post carefully pistolpete or at all -perhaps you were too busy being amused.
I am certainly amused by the notion - oft repeated on pvp - that those of us who do look carefully at these issues are somehow not 'in the trenches, or doers" to coin a phrase. Note I am not accusing you of this PP. I suspect that dj for example, like myself, was coaching the pole vault long before many of those who visit pvp were born. That doesn't necessarily make us better in any way except of course it has given us the opportunity to make - and hopefully learn from - most of the mistakes that coaches are likely to make.
"What moves a coach from beginner to intermediate to advanced? Is it the height of the bar or the number of successful landings in the pit? My vote is on the ladder." Not sure what you meant by this - but my view would be that what matters is both the height of the bar AND a successful clearance to land on the pad. And some of us have seen literally hundreds of thousands of those landings over many years.
"Respectfully submitted for open review".[/quote] Pleased you added that because although overall I liked your post you were beginning to seem a bit bumptious. As to your girl and the issue of the left arm - take a look at 17 yo Lauren Eley either in BTB2 or on the dvd and you will exactly the issue you describe - and she was jumping 12'8" from 12 steps after two years as vaulter. Unfortunately??? she then went to medical school!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden
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WarPathMade
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Re: What does the bottom arm do????
IF we simplify the vault, for the sake of discussion, as an athlete running, planting the pole, and swinging up on it as if he/she would on a high bar or rings, both arms would be pushing, just from different directions throughout the movement. When on the rings, or a high bar, an athlete will notice his/her swing is greatly accelerated if he/she thinks about pushing his/her hands forward (and thus engaging his/her shoulders) during and after the tap, as the hips rise. One can pull themselves into inversion, just not as quickly or explosively. In a more applicable scenario, the shoulder of the top arm would be more largely engaged during a bent pole vault as the hands are obviously not parallel when vaulting. (NOTE: Pushing the hands forward on the high bar or engaging the shoulders during the vault should NOT be confused with rowing! "Rowing" the hands implies the hands come in front of the vaulter's head, which prevents the athlete from "covering the pole.") If the athlete is able to swing effectively into an inverted position, with the "hips up," extension is not a pull. It is pushing down on the pole while the athlete's center of mass is above it.
--To summarize, the bottom arm should not pull, it is merely pushing on the pole from different angles and positions throughout the vault.
-Side Note- Earlier posts mentioned the "inverted C" position as being passive (If vaulting correctly, the inverted C position would not be passive as the vaulter should be hitting the pole with a rigid body, with only the shoulder joints loose ). For the sake of discussion, let's agree its passive. If so, wouldn't it be a necessary passive phase? To produce an elastic stretch in the shoulders, allowing for a more explosive swing? If the inverted C IS passive, then so is the lowering a long jumper experiences at takeoff and a basketball player experiences when lowering before dunking a basketball.
--To summarize, the bottom arm should not pull, it is merely pushing on the pole from different angles and positions throughout the vault.
-Side Note- Earlier posts mentioned the "inverted C" position as being passive (If vaulting correctly, the inverted C position would not be passive as the vaulter should be hitting the pole with a rigid body, with only the shoulder joints loose ). For the sake of discussion, let's agree its passive. If so, wouldn't it be a necessary passive phase? To produce an elastic stretch in the shoulders, allowing for a more explosive swing? If the inverted C IS passive, then so is the lowering a long jumper experiences at takeoff and a basketball player experiences when lowering before dunking a basketball.
"I know some things. I don't pretend to know that which I don't."
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PVDaddy
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Re: What does the bottom arm do????
First of all I want to say that I am glad to see just over the past couple of months a change in consensus among many to believing the bottom arm performs both a Pulling action and Pushing action. This has increased from 30% to now 40%.
Pistolpete said;
Humor is a good thing Pistolpete.I think it has been said, it is medicine for the soul. We all need a little bit of that from time to time. Your recent post in fact, just gave me a good dose of the tonic!
You said regarding the bottom hand;
Pretty sure although you paraphrased me "an uneducated coach", it is in fact the top hand that should act as a pivot point for the body to swing around?
You then said:
As an uneducated coach, this is the last thing I would teach to initiate the swing. I would focus on continuing to push (stretch) upward, moving the pole toward vertical , allowing the shoulder girdles to remain elastic and the body to naturally initiate the swing!
I in fact would tell them that pushing the arms downward and driving the tip of the pole into the box will not only stop the pole from bending and moving toward vertical, it will also cause the shoulders from being elastic and would in fact delay the swing! Not only that I would tell them it would also cause them to prematurely tuck and that they might get fiber-nose or their bottom hand might even bump their nose after take off!
As far as the pole tip is concerned I would teach them to try to jump OV ER it! But this is just me and it would be a very difficult thing to do in "My shoes" Their so heavy!
But maybe I'm being to sensitive and hurt because I want them to try to stick with the IDEAL model following just silly theory and not being practical enough!
As far as the pole tip is concerned I would teach them to try to jump OV ER it! But this is just me and it would be a very difficult thing to do in "My shoes" Their so heavy!
Pistolpete said;
I must say, I got quite a laugh from the whole "Agenda 21" and the ensuing debate.
Humor is a good thing Pistolpete.I think it has been said, it is medicine for the soul. We all need a little bit of that from time to time. Your recent post in fact, just gave me a good dose of the tonic!
You said regarding the bottom hand;
It acts as a pivot point for the rest of the body to swing around,
Pretty sure although you paraphrased me "an uneducated coach", it is in fact the top hand that should act as a pivot point for the body to swing around?
You then said:
To help my kids learn how to initiate the swing I use the analogy of driving the pole tip down into the box. Think of pushing your arms downward so that the force exerted on the pole follows the length of the pole pushing energy into the butt / down into the box
As an uneducated coach, this is the last thing I would teach to initiate the swing. I would focus on continuing to push (stretch) upward, moving the pole toward vertical , allowing the shoulder girdles to remain elastic and the body to naturally initiate the swing!
I in fact would tell them that pushing the arms downward and driving the tip of the pole into the box will not only stop the pole from bending and moving toward vertical, it will also cause the shoulders from being elastic and would in fact delay the swing! Not only that I would tell them it would also cause them to prematurely tuck and that they might get fiber-nose or their bottom hand might even bump their nose after take off!
As far as the pole tip is concerned I would teach them to try to jump OV ER it! But this is just me and it would be a very difficult thing to do in "My shoes" Their so heavy!
But maybe I'm being to sensitive and hurt because I want them to try to stick with the IDEAL model following just silly theory and not being practical enough!
As far as the pole tip is concerned I would teach them to try to jump OV ER it! But this is just me and it would be a very difficult thing to do in "My shoes" Their so heavy!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.
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Tim McMichael
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Re: What does the bottom arm do????
Here is one of my vaulters at OU doing a close hand drill. It is one of my favorite teaching tools if the athlete is advanced enough to do it. I thought it would provide some food for thought and commentary on this issue. I am not ready to say the bottom arm does nothing, but in terms of making the pole bend, the definite answer is that it does not do much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&clie ... nomobile=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&clie ... nomobile=1
Last edited by Tim McMichael on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PVDaddy
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Re: What does the bottom arm do????
That was cool Tim! Never got to see that before on a flexible pole. Reminded me of my favorite vaulter Cornelius Warmerdam and what he might look like on a flexible pole! No bottom hand yet the pole still bends!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.
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Tim McMichael
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Re: What does the bottom arm do????
PVDaddy wrote:That was cool Tim! Never got to see that before on a flexible pole. Reminded me of my favorite vaulter Cornelius Warmerdam and what he might look like on a flexible pole! No bottom hand yet the pole still bends!
It is my understanding that one of Petrov's chief insights was that there is no essential difference between the takeoff in bamboo or metal pole vault and a fiberglass vault. The head coach at OU was J.D. Martin when I was there and when he saw Bubka vault his comment was that Bubka was doing the same thing he was doing when he jumped 15'9" on a metal pole in the early sixties.
Last edited by Tim McMichael on Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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rainbowgirl28
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Re: What does the bottom arm do????
Tim McMichael wrote:Here is one of my vaulters at OU doing a close hand drill. It is one of my favorite teaching tools if the athlete is advanced enough to do it. I thought it would provide some food for thought and commentary on this issue. I am not ready to say the bottom arm does nothing, but in terms of making the pole bend, the definite answer is that it does not do much.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=-V2YbIQT1Wk
Great drill!
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