Does the Russian model represent ideal technique?

[agapit]

What amazes me is that 25+ years later what Bubka did is still misunderstood and as you can see without continuous reinforcement and stimulation the unrealized knowledge deteriorates and that is why, I believe, we see decline in performance as the generation that was exposed to it retires.

[david bussabarger]

to pv junkie foom netastus nefastum,
you are right that I have some of my terms confused. I did not initially understand the difference between the terms free take off and the pre jump. I am against the pre jump because it is tantamount to jumping on the pole. Also, based on a good deal of visual research, I could not find any clear evidence of an elite vaulter ( this includes all the 6m. vaulters ) successfully employing pre jump technique. in otherwords I could not find any empirical evidence that shows that the pre jump actually provides any benifit to the vaulter. it is , from what I can tell , an idealized,hypothetical construct.
the technical model I am refering to ( I define the term model based on the dictionary definition: a standard or example for imitation or comparison ) is called by several different names from what I can tell. I initially called it the russian model, but have now decided to call it the bubka/petrov model ( with petrov being the creator, and bubka being it's truest incarnation ). whatever I have called it, it,s acolytes ( and I intend the religious conotation ) know exactly what I am desputing. that is I depute that there is such a thing as an ideal technical model and that bubka's technique represents the best possible or ideal technique. I base my arguement on empirical evidence and draw my conlusions from said empirical evidence.
that stated , from what I know, petrov does not seem to be nearly as dogmatic as his acolytes. obviously when he coached gibilisco he did not try to force fit him into the technical model he used to develop bubka. from my point of view gibilisco's technique represented virtually a whole different approach to technique vs. bubka ( although it has been argued by the australian v. physco that gibilisco was a b/p vaulter). again from my point of view, the acolytes of the b/p model tend to define the model so loosely, that it becomes meaningless ( it can include anyone they say it does ). this includes vaulters who cannot execute many of it's techniques, but because they are trying to achieve the model, they consider them selves b/p vaulters. I think they would more acurately be described as b/p devotees.

[agapit]

to pv junkie foom netastus nefastum,
you are right that I have some of my terms confused. I did not initially understand the difference between the terms free take off and the pre jump. I am against the pre jump because it is tantamount to jumping on the pole. Also, based on a good deal of visual research, I could not find any clear evidence of an elite vaulter ( this includes all the 6m. vaulters ) successfully employing pre jump technique. in otherwords I could not find any empirical evidence that shows that the pre jump actually provides any benifit to the vaulter. it is , from what I can tell , an idealized,hypothetical construct.
the technical model I am refering to ( I define the term model based on the dictionary definition: a standard or example for imitation or comparison ) is called by several different names from what I can tell. I initially called it the russian model, but have now decided to call it the bubka/petrov model ( with petrov being the creator, and bubka being it's truest incarnation ). whatever I have called it, it,s acolytes ( and I intend the religious conotation ) know exactly what I am desputing. that is I depute that there is such a thing as an ideal technical model and that bubka's technique represents the best possible or ideal technique. I base my arguement on empirical evidence and draw my conlusions from said empirical evidence.
that stated , from what I know, petrov does not seem to be nearly as dogmatic as his acolytes. obviously when he coached gibilisco he did not try to force fit him into the technical model he used to develop bubka. from my point of view gibilisco's technique represented virtually a whole different approach to technique vs. bubka ( although it has been argued by the australian v. physco that gibilisco was a b/p vaulter). again from my point of view, the acolytes of the b/p model tend to define the model so loosely, that it becomes meaningless ( it can include anyone they say it does ). this includes vaulters who cannot execute many of it's techniques, but because they are trying to achieve the model, they consider them selves b/p vaulters. I think they would more acurately be described as b/p devotees.

David, sorry I wrote a reply, but then decided why bother. The bottom line is you are not offering anything and it is really useless and boring. So, I believe I have said everything I need to say. I do appreciate your passion about the event. Good luck!

[VaultPurple]

Also, based on a good deal of visual research, I could not find any clear evidence of an elite vaulter ( this includes all the 6m. vaulters ) successfully employing pre jump technique.

I personally am not a big fan of over stressing a pre-jump or 100% "Free" take off. There is no arguing their benefits. I just personally think there are a lot more important things to focus on when learning the vault. And that the difference in a 16' and a 19' vaulter is not weather or not they are 6 inches under or have a free take off.

HOWEVER, bussabarger, please look up some videos of Svetlana Feofanova (first woman over 16'). She has a few videos out there that when the pole hits the back of the box she is about 4 to 6 inches in the air. So essentially going from being 5'3 to 5'9. Also, Ashton Eaton has a rather effective pre-jump. Although he only jumps 5.30 as a decathlete who has been vaulting for a very short time, I would argue that his pre-jump helps rather than hurts him.

[ADTF Academy]

So who was Nikanorov Popov?

Is that Petrov's russian name or was it someone else who coached Sergey prior to Petrov?


In an article that was posted from 1984 it stated he was in fact Bubka's coach. This is the first time I have ever seen his name in any articles. I knew Sergey worked with a coach after Petrov before he retired. Anyone have any insights on who this man was?

[agapit]

So who was Nikanorov Popov?

Is that Petrov's russian name or was it someone else who coached Sergey prior to Petrov?


In an article that was posted from 1984 it stated he was in fact Bubka's coach. This is the first time I have ever seen his name in any articles. I knew Sergey worked with a coach after Petrov before he retired. Anyone have any insights on who this man was?

Bubka worked with Petrov from age 10 as far as I know. There could be different speculations on why they split and there could be different triggers named, but I think the real cause was that Bubka business engagements put Petrov's training plans on the side lines. However, they did work together for 15-16 years. After Petrov, I believe his gymnastic coach worked with him for couple of years. Nikanorov & Popov are two different last names and they don't ring the bell, however I do not remember the name of his gymnastic coach.

I know most people don't appreciate this, but Petrov brought a new insight to the event. Alan Launder presented it in BTB books and I describe my understanding of that insight in my posts. Petrov worked and influenced many vaulters such as Trandenkov (6+), Petushinky (5.9+), Bubka's brother (5.85) and many other 5.65+ vaulters just in Russia and many more were just loosely associated, but were in on the trend. Gibilisko won a World Championship in 2003. Petrov influenced Isimbaeva on women's side.

Why am I saying this? It is essential, I believe, to give a proper recognition to the preceding generation in order to build on their knowledge. This is in fact to be cultured and base our own development on the achievements of the ones who came before us and not simply be nihilistic often without clear understanding of their input.

[ADTF Academy]

Those are the exactly the same things I have heard about Bubka and Petrov relationship. It was just a weird comment made. As happens it may have been a misprint by paper. It does happen.

The comment that was made was just weird for someone to say that had no input in working with Bubka.


Comment was from 1983/1984 and Nikanorov Popov said "with today's poles being used he didn't believe 6m won't come till 1986 or 1987." As another reliable source told me it could have been a random National Coach that was sent with the Russians to the US to compete in I believe 1984.

It was just a weird series of comments naming a guy I have never heard of. Just thought I would ask.

[david bussabarger]

I just finished reading an interview with Greg Duplantis in the latest editon of Vaulter Mag. ( which is available online ). In it he states that he does not belive in one ideal technical style or model. Futher, he does not impose any one style or model on his son Mondo, who he coaches. So I am not the only person in the vault world with this point of view.

[altius]

I just finished reading an interview with Greg Duplantis in the latest editon of Vaulter Mag. ( which is available online ). In it he states that he does not belive in one ideal technical style or model. Futher, he does not impose any one style or model on his son Mondo, who he coaches. So I am not the only person in the vault world with this point of view.

No you are not alone - neither are the folk who believe the earth is flat or was formed less than 10,000 years ago.

But the question I asked previously is still valid. If you don't know where you are going, how do you know which direction to take with your first step and how do you know you are close to your destination even when you are just around the corner from it?

[grandevaulter]

What amazes me is that 25+ years later what Bubka did is still misunderstood and as you can see without continuous reinforcement and stimulation the unrealized knowledge deteriorates and that is why, I believe, we see decline in performance as the generation that was exposed to it retires.

I was at Fort Michilimakinac, an old fort at the foot of the Makinac Bridge. It is the longest archeological dig in the U.S. There are display cases full of steel hand tools from the mid to late 1700s when the British and French were occupying.

Many of the tools have labels that say what they were used for. One case has a letter that asks if anyone knows what the tools were used for to contact an attendant or call a number provided. I doubt if it ever crossed their minds that their tools would become obsolete or even unrecognizable.

[dj]

Physics… is the correct technique..

The higher anyone jumps the closer to physics they become…

The key "element " is the amount of "force" that can be produced and transferred "at" the point of takeoff.

Bubka did it the best (with the right pole and right grip)and more times than most other world class vaulters.

dj

[charlie]

He LOADED at the BOTTOM and got EJECTED up off the end, and yes the POLE did alot of the EJECTING!!! That is why he was able to LEAVE the pole out in FRONT of the bar and was STILL RISING and DID NOT have his hand on the POLE by the time his hipps were over the bar!!!!!