What does the bottom arm do????

[kcvault]

When I first read of pulling with the bottom arm to accelerate the swing it sounded counter productive, however when looking at video of my own vault I clearly pull with my bottom arm. I have always been able to push pretty far over my top hand on very small poles (all the poles in this video are 10-15lbs under my body weight) and think it might be a partially do to the pulling motion with my bottom giving me the momentum to push off the top. Not sure how well you can see it in the youtube video but there is a clear pull. When looking at it in slow motion on my camera To initiate the swing/tuck I pull down and then I pull the bottom arm in to stay tight to the pole on the top. I am definitely not trying to pull nor am I aware of it but I am focused on trying to swing as fast as I can from my top arm.

I also looked at video of my wife jumping today. We are focusing on swinging as fast as we can from the top arm and hitting a further out step. Though it was not as apparent because her bottom arm was completely collapsed at takeoff when looking at it the exact same pulling motion existed in her jump that was in mine (except with a long swing to the top instead of tuck) but it was not apparent until the part of the swing where here bottom arm pressed back out. I used to think this was a pressing motion but I think her arm actually presses back out to allow her to pull better.

After considering this I believe though a pulling motion exists it should not be taught. I believe if an athlete thinks about pulling with the bottom arm it may take away from what the top arm is doing. I believe if the vaulter try's to swing as fast as possible this pull with the bottom arm will happen naturally and unconsciously.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuIbb-o1DPQ

[dj]

I believe if an athlete thinks about pulling with the bottom arm it may take away from what the top arm is doing. I believe if the vaulter try's to swing as fast as possible this pull with the bottom arm will happen naturally and unconsciously.

ditttttooo

or something to that effect...

dj

[agapit]

After considering this I believe though a pulling motion exists it should not be taught. I believe if an athlete thinks about pulling with the bottom arm it may take away from what the top arm is doing. I believe if the vaulter try's to swing as fast as possible this pull with the bottom arm will happen naturally and unconsciously.

Well my friend it is a huge progress that you acknowledge that the pull exists at all You see I am not speculating on whether and when to teach it. I teach it for about 20 years now. If you want to leave this to be natural and unconscious as you suggest, you will end up with natural, unconscious and therefore slow inversion. You see the purpose of the training is to increase the inversion speed and vertical COG speed beyond natural and unconscious.

[altius]

It is no good getting your knickers in a twist over this Roman. As you know it took a long while for many folk to accept the notion of what I termed a prejump - and that only became possible because there was film available and because we had a direct quote from Bubka himself as to what he intended to do at take off. At the moment, no matter how cogent your argument, which as I have indicated I accept, there is no evidence of a similar kind to support it. As a result many folk are going to be reluctant to take on board an idea that is counterintuitive, counter to what their eyes are seeing - and to experiment with themselves or their athletes.

I have accepted the logic of your argument and believe that my athletes intuitively may have done what you are suggesting because they had done a great deal of stiff pole work - but not because they were taught to do it. Why was this the case? Because in all of my discussions with Petrov and Bubka this idea was never mentioned so it was not something I ever consciously taught, unlike the pre jump and covering the pole -both elements that Petrov did insist upon. Again I believe that is possible to SEE how every other element of Bubka's technical model matched the bio mechanical imperatives - but it is not possible to SEE this.

So if you really want to get folk to accept this argument, I believe that either you or your disciple Lawrence Johnson have got to produce athletes who clearly do what you are suggesting and show how it improves their performance. Johnson is in an ideal position to do this because in Angy Rummans he has one of the most kinaesthetically aware athletes I have ever seen -if she cant learn to do it no one can.

We have moved on a long way from simply copying what the latest world record holder or Olympic champion did but in coaching, for many people unfortunately, the proof is always in the result -and in fact this is not an unreasonable position to take.

Anther alternative would be for you to list as precisely as you can the learning process you would employ both to help athletes learn this movement pattern or perhaps more importantly to change old patterns.

I would also add that while there may have to a cognitive element to learning how to do this in the early stages - it is important to move on to intuitive movement patterns because 'thinking' gets in the way of skilled performance. In fact as quickly as possible you must make this a 'natural' movement.

[tsorenson]

This has been a great thread! Thanks to all the contributors.

I have not been commenting because I haven't really had too much to add, except that I have always felt that the bottom arm pulls to accelerate the swing. The problem is that you can't really do it if you are under (you just get ripped into the swing), or if you don't finish driving up through the takeoff first (you just land on the bar or in the box), so that disqualifies most vaulters from being able to do it right. So it's hard to teach, especially to beginners who tend to hug the pole at takeoff. But this is the advanced technique forum. So all the 10' vaulters who are reading this need to keep that in mind before they try to pull and hug the pole even harder. Master the run plant and takeoff! Then swing as fast as you can (including the pull)! I have told a few of the kids I coach to use the bottom hand pull, but only the ones who block out the bottom arm so badly that they pinwheel around the pole when it recoils. It seems to be working for those kids! Mostly I tend to de-emphasize the bottom arm, feeling that it's really hard to explain what it does and kids should think about the top arm and swinging as fast and long as possible.

I have a question for Roman regarding his pole climbing drill, which I understand to be the best way to master the early pull. I have recently started trying this drill, which I find to be fun and (relatively) easy. I think this is because I have always had little bottom arm pressure at takeoff, and have always tended to vault with an early pull. However, nobody around uses that drill (except Baggett and he's a few hours away), so I may just be doing the drill wrong.

So, my question is: which hand goes up the pole first, if you are doing hand-over-hand? I am moving my left hand up first, above the right, then another big move with the right to the top of the pole as it rolls over, then matching hands at the top of the pole. Is this right? I can see where you'd rather do a huge double-hand dynamic move to the top of the pole, if you were in a little better shape than I am...

I saw the LJ video of the drill, but do you have any better video of someone executing this drill the way you suggest?

Thanks,
Tom

[agapit]

So, my question is: which hand goes up the pole first, if you are doing hand-over-hand? I am moving my left hand up first, above the right, then another big move with the right to the top of the pole as it rolls over, then matching hands at the top of the pole. Is this right? I can see where you'd rather do a huge double-hand dynamic move to the top of the pole, if you were in a little better shape than I am...

I saw the LJ video of the drill, but do you have any better video of someone executing this drill the way you suggest?

Thanks,
Tom

I would not focus on how to climb a pole, but that the athlete can actually clime to the set mark, for example top of the pole. In advance version, if you can call it that, there is really one jump with both arms moving at the same time. Beginners would climb left over right first. I have never seen right over right .

In my experience the benefit is that focus on climb automatically addresses timing of the plant/jump as well as the direction of the jump. For example if the plant/jump is late and an athlete is "stretched' by the pole on the ground it would be a lot more difficult to achieve the climb height. It is that simple. Also the arm engagement right after the completion of the takeoff is reminiscent of the "pull" I’m describing.

[agapit]

So if you really want to get folk to accept this argument, I believe that either you or your disciple Lawrence Johnson have got to produce athletes who clearly do what you are suggesting and show how it improves their performance.

Well, Lawrence and I, we both believe and we did immediate pulling action in vaulting and certainly athletes I have trained all have been exposed to this and not to holding or to pushing or to rowing.

How would you describe what stiff-pole vaulters did? How would they describe their action themselves? When would the best of them begin it if not right away after completing takeoff cycle? So don’t call it a “pull”, I cannot find a better term, call it something else that’s fine with me, just don’t wait, and don’t get into the “pocket” or ride the pole  And focus training on accelerating this, whatever you call it through deliberate training and do not leave it to natural, unconscious motion.

You know setting WR is in a lottery of a sort. You have to have the right context as you correctly describe in BTB. I have done my best coaching between earning a living as an immigrant early on. And as we all know, unless you work for a university in the US (which I never wanted) or Australia or a club it is difficult to make a living in pole vault or to achieve the maximum potential. You have to have support of the community, etc, etc. And yes have right recruits. I think that I employed the model I am describing here, and I have achieved decent results, but realistically I would put myself on the scale from 1 to 10 somewhere at 7 in athletic abilities and body composition as it relates to pole vault. I ran 10.5” – 100m and long jump 7.10m (23’+) with my 178cm height (5’10” or so). But I did not ran 10.1 and 8m long jump as Bubka did, neither, did I standing long jump 3.60m (12’ or so) as LoJo did.

The point for me writing all of this is to keep people exposed. Some will understand it and will adopt it to what they do and they will be the WR holders. If I’m lucky, I may get the right context to do it myself, but I do not want this line of knowledge to disappear with me, so to speak.

I believe, Bubka pushed WR far enough that unless we get a true supper athlete that runs 10.2 m/s at the takeoff the WR is safe unless you employ aggressive inversion that results in 1.4m+ push potential as was achieved by Bubka, although in official records it was just over 1.2m+. But how many fiberglass vaulters do you know that do 1.2m? And most of them “squeeze” it in the best performances unable to replicate it on consistent basis.

Guys that grip 5.10-5.15 are so focused on getting this grip into the pit that they virtually do not have the second part. And these are Tarasov, Markov, Hartwig, Britz, Lobinger, Walker and some others. They simply recover and barely have time to follow the recoiling pole. You know, I tell you that Tim Mack came close to this in 2004 and he did 1.2m+, but due to some mistakes at the takeoff, I believe, he did not grip 5.10-5.15 hence no WR 

I just want to see WR again in my lifetime. I have my Maslow Pyramid need for self-actualization satisfied, so I really do not feel pressure nor am I trying to convert anyone. I am just speaking and he who has ears will hear.

[powerplant42]

I am not a super athlete, and I will never set the WR, but I would very much like to meet with you in person to discuss this (and FEEL this, which seems to be the crux). Sent you a PM a little while ago. Maybe we could assemble some film? I do believe in what you are saying but would like to have a more "hands on" understanding. Perhaps you have some time for me? I'd love to help clarify all this in whatever way I can.

[altius]

"I just want to see WR again in my lifetime." WE are with you on this!!!


" I really do not feel pressure nor am I trying to convert anyone." Are you sure you are not a Muslim?


"I am just speaking and he who has ears will hear." NO = as I indicated above -that is the problem- for most folk SEEING is believing.

[powerplant42]

"NO = as I indicated above -that is the problem- for most folk SEEING is believing. "

This is what I'd like to help with. I am not that far from Knoxville. We could easily put some film together.

[nielsalofsen]

Agapit, being a believer of the function of the pull with the bottom arm, I'm happy with you explaining how to teach this to athletes. Thanks for the information.

Are there also specific gymnastic exercises or drills you use in addition? How can we use the highbar or the rope for training the pull with the bottom arm?

What is your opinion about the shoot-to-handstand-from-slight-swing drill on the highbar as shown in the link below?
http://www.vimeo.com/29660903

Thanks for your response!

[Barto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHRnzXHgBDM