Worst indoor season ever ?

[altius]

"Anyone who thinks its easy to jump 5.80 ........" Never a truer word spoken. It is easy to get hooked into watching film of folk jumping 6.00 and to begin to think that this the norm. My experience suggests that it is relatively easy to get athletes to 5.40/5.50 on less than professional training but that next 30 cms demands infinitely more in terms of training time and especially training loads and training quality. Very difficult to do unless you are a full time athlete with full time support - especially on the medical, restoration and recuperation side of things.

[altius]

"But maybe the Petrov influx is hurting too, because too many coaches are concentrating so much on technique, people are just getting slow."

No relationship between these two issues. Indeed if I remember correctly not so long ago coaches were explaining Bubkas success away by his great speed on the runway! The fact is that speed at take off is irrelevant if an athlete's technique and physical status cannot handle that speed and convert it into pole speed. On page 209 0f BTB2 I quote Bubka who in Jamaica said" The important thing is how much of your speed and your strength you can use while actually jumping . Someone can run the hundred metres in 11 seconds, but if he does the proper movements in the exact moment he can jump very high."

A critical element of this is the ability to continue to accelerate through the last five metres. This is only possible if the planting action and timing are absolutely precise. I believe that this is a bigger weakness in most vaulters than lack of speed - in part it is because many athletes are not prepared to undertake the repetitive training necessary to perfect it - through less than full approach runs note for I disagree with dj on this. It is far more fun to just go to the full run and charge in so that is what many folk will choose to do - there juast comes a time when you have to stop playing at the pole vault and begin training for it - just like the gymnasts do.

[golfdane]

This is only possible if the planting action and timing are absolutely precise. I believe that this is a bigger weakness in most vaulters than lack of speed - in part it is because many athletes are not prepared to undertake the repetitive training necessary to perfect it - through less than full approach runs note for I disagree with dj on this. It is far more fun to just go to the full run and charge in so that is what many folk will choose to do - there juast comes a time when you have to stop playing at the pole vault and begin training for it - just like the gymnasts do.

Exactly. You cannot train a specific move over and over through full jumping (efficiently). If you wish to perfect the whip (for instance), do you find a drill or two for it, and repeat it until it's consistent. A fit vaulter can perhaps have 12-15 full jumps before quality deteriorates in a session, but can probably do twice that with a good drill or a short run-up. He/she then hopes that whatever he/she was trying to perfect is repeatable in the full jump. If it isn't, should he/she grind drills again. Technical training 101.

Thx Alan, for reminding me.

[dj]

good morning,

through less than full approach runs note for I disagree with dj on this

i'm not sure what you are "disagreeing" with me on???

if it has anything to do with the run distance... please state what i have said, in entirety, not something that may be "out of context"...

i have stated that we are "focused" way to much on short run vaulting... too much (take note... i said "too much" not "0" ) short run vaulting, AND trying to PR with grip and jump height is creating pretty much every issue that has become an "issue" without technique... i.e.. stretching the steps, stretching the last step... force bending with the bottom arm, taking off under... etc.. are a DIRECT result of not enough speed /force (remember we are supposed to bend the pole, naturally, with the body coming into support at the takeoff) to grip or jump where we are trying to jump....

DIRECT... relationship.. between our current technique and short run vaulting….

Here is where I say…. "the definition of crazy is… doing the same thing over and over and expecting (actually demanding) a different result." ; )

i use short run vaulting in every vault session i have... but i don't try to PR or brag about how high i can jump from a short run... that has NO value... but short runs has the same value in "progressively" creating the right technique as drills and progressions...

all the vaulters i work/worked with have had drills from 20/30/40 feet... short runs of 12/14 steps and long runs of 18/20 steps... it is an easier transition from short to long if you know how to do it... the answers are in the chart.....

Tully jumped from 14... 5.45 and almost made 5.55.... he was at a peak right before the games and had the speed (and correct run technique) to hit a 53/16.25 "MID" and grip in the 15-9/4.80m range... from the 14 step run...

we knew he was ready to jump over 19 at the games.... depending on how the competition went.. his long run was two walking and 18 running steps..... 4.95/5 meter grip when the wind was ok....with a 55/16.80m "MID".

dj

[altius]

First of all dj let me make the point that I am not arguing - I am simply clarifying what I believe to be the Petrov position.

Your words from earlier in this topic dj.

"Also we are doing too much shot run vaulting.. we are teaching athletes to jump without speed… we have "dumbed" it down until we have slow, below average vaulters… "

"Now we have "short run vaulters" not capable of creating the speeds needed to jump higher"

" AND they learn to stretch and can only run by stretching…. AND stretch into the Takeoff!!!!!!! Over and over… then ask PVP to "fix it"…"

First I am not sure how short run vaulting -especially it there is always an emphasis on cadence - can cause this!

As you may recall - in BTB2 I advocate that young vaulters especially should do one session EVERY week of the year on their full run - and although I do not use your mid mark chart I do emphasise the need for high cadence over the last six steps - as anyone who has attended any clinic I have done in the US can testify.

I would hate to see vaulters return to the philosophy prevalent a few years ago when almost every post dealt with 'What is your 100 time" and speed was emphasised over technique. As I have continually pointed out = the faster you are going = the bigger the potential train wreck - the kind of wreck that leads to deaths in this event - and does little to raise standards.

At the elite end speed is a factor, but not as big a factor as many have suggested that it is - and only if it is supported by the the technical perfection that enables the athlete to continue to accelerate over the last five metres.

[VaultPurple]

First I am not sure how short run vaulting -especially it there is always an emphasis on cadence - can cause this!

BINGO!

The big problem with short runs with 99% of pole vaulters is that the vaulter wants to jump on just as big of a pole from 4 lefts as they can from 9. So they obsess over trying to run as fast as they can and get on massive poles and jump a PR from 4 lefts. Where if they were to do 4 lefts and really concentrate on turning over really fast over the last steps and jumping at the take off they could work on everything. But if you run 4 lefts correctly you will be going significantly slower than if you run 4 lefts as fast as you can.

[ADTF Academy]

You guys should address your feeling towards the following 3 ways to do short approach rather it being good or bad based on these 3 ways short approach can be used. I am curious DJ's and Alan's comments.

1. Short approach working technique only and not worrying about clearing a bar
2. Short Approach work trying to clear bars
3. All short approach work period


Personally I think there is a huge difference between 1 and 2. We use short approach to work on technique on the bottom and middle of the jump and could care less (within reason) on the top and clearance. Short approach means smaller pole not the same return with less energy thus not the same feel or action on the top of the jumps as from full. I would agree with DJ there is way to much emphasis on short approach PR's. You have to alter things to clear a bar from short approach the vault can't and won't be 100% similar if the goal is to clear something. I look at it from a perspective of how high the body is rising on X pole from Y run up. Personally I never try to clear anything from short. I really don't even like bungees from short.

[titanpv07]

I know the goal of this thread wasn't intended to be a discussion of short fun vaulting but I just had a question....

A few years ago I screwed up my shoulder real good and had it surgically repaired, once I was "recovered" all I was cleared to do was short run so I worked on 2,3,4 left vaults but not pushing poles/overrunning into the takeoff and focusing on good technique and not worrying if i was blowing through as long as I was hitting good positions, then one day I wondered what I could actually clear and from 4 went 4.50 and 4.60(which with a lifetime best of 5.00m was solid) and I felt like the short runs helped me alot and had it not been for a 2nd season ending injury within a calendar year I would have jumped well above 5.00.

what/how exactly would you do in a short run session?

one thing i have come to relaize is too much short run vaulting can/will screw with your long runs as the run from my long run hasn't been the same since pre-injury and have also turned into 1 of the biggest head cases I've ever seen which i feel is partly from the injuries but partly getting so used to short runs that a long run just feels either 2 out of control or "just not feelin right"

[Lax PV]

I am curious to hear peoples opinions on how they believe short runs can affect an athletes runway in general. It has been long agreed upon that the runway is a crucial (if not most crucial) component to the vault. My contention is that the short approach affects an athlete in a couple of ways;

1) cadence - as mentioned before, the first 3/4 lefts are much slower than the last 3/4 lefts. This INHERENTLY teaches a vaulter to move the pole slower when setting up for take off.
2) impulse of the take off - no one will argue that the short run jumping is as hard on the body as full approach. Much of the energy comes from the runway, but much of the shock comes to the body. If everyone had a free take off, things would be great and no one would have should problems. Sadly few people have said take off.
3) posture - a higher grip means more torque from the pole. This requires greater core stability in the final steps of the vault when the athlete should be setting up to take off. If they are not consciously thinking about holding their posture, I doubt they will hold it as well. This posture could in turn affect the athletes hip mobility, altering stride characteristics, leading to less control than the athlete is used to.
4) perception of where the athlete is - when holding at 85-90% of their full runway grip, where does this move a take off step? With a little trig, one can find that a grip change from 15' to 13'6", take off step moves almost 2' and the angle of the pole/runway interface goes from 30 degrees to 36 degrees. HUGE changes, that if a full approach is not jumped at often will have detrimental results.

sadly, I know this from experience when I got out of college and was too broken, out of shape and lazy to come from a full approach.

What are peoples thoughts?

[rainbowgirl28]

I think tons of short run vaults are crucial for beginners who are learning PV technique and who generally have inconsistent runs that increase in inconsistentcy as they go longer. I hate seeing high school kids running from more than 5 lefts who are jumping less than 10' (boys) and have a mid mark all over the place... and we all see this all the time.

College athletes tend to vary widely in their ability levels. They generally all have an extended fall training season that the high school kids don't have, and generally the bulk of short run training should occur during this time. I personally still think short run vaulting has it's place for college athletes (especially those who need to make major technical improvements), but there are a lot of ways to skin a cat at this level and still be a good coach.

I don't have an opinion about whether elite vaulters should ever do short runs. Some do them a lot in the off season and some never do.

[Lax PV]

I think tons of short run vaults are crucial for beginners who are learning PV technique and who generally have inconsistent runs that increase in inconsistentcy as they go longer. I hate seeing high school kids running from more than 5 lefts who are jumping less than 10' (boys) and have a mid mark all over the place... and we all see this all the time.

Completely agree with this statement.

I might have sounded a bit one sided, however, I do think that short run vaulting can have its place. Somehow, the intensity needs to be modified to allow for intensity modulation. I have heard of some people jumping on smaller poles (not less than their weight, but down 2 or 3 poles from common competition poles) from full approaches to decrease the intensity. I have never done it myself, or had anyone do it, so I cannot speak on its success of failures directly. I would assume some of the 'air work' would be compromised due to blowing through all the time. Either way, something is going to be compromised somewhere.

Has anyone tried this 'degrading of poles' for intensity modulation that could tell a little bit about their experiences/opinions?

[golfdane]

http://www.stabhoch.com/epvc/petrov_plan.pdf

I think the crux of Alan's point is, that you need to have a mentality that allows grinding drills. Perfecting small elements by isolating them in drills that allows a big number of repetitions, and transfer them into full jumps later into the season. Full jumps with a full run-up takes a huge toll on your body. The "cowboy" mentality (not trying to offend cowboys), that only full jumps matters, is not going to produce world class jumpers.

You will never be able to have equal form during a full year, so it is ludicrous to expect to be able to jump consistently from full run-ups all year round.