Major Jumps (what were their speed?)

[VaultPurple]

Does anyone have a list or a link to a list of the top vaulters over the past few years and what was their PR and the max speed achieved in the run in m/s?

For example.

Bubka
6.15m 10.1 m/s

I would really like to see the numbers for guys like that people would consider 'tuck and shooters'. But all numbers are welcome.

[tsorenson]

It is hard to gather the data for everyone's PR jumps because they were all achieved at varying meets, usually without accurate measurements. One trustworthy source of some speed data I have seen is from Peter McGinnis, although I couldn't find the article. Its title is " Report of Men's Pole Vault Approach Run Velocities" and was done in 2008 for USATF.

Here is another good one from Helsinki 2005 World Championships, includes men, women, decathletes
http://www.iaafacademy.com/helsinki%20r ... 0Vault.pdf

Interestingly, this report shows that isinbayeva's highest vault of the competition had her lowest speed (compared to her other jumps) at takeoff. I think we can all agree that more speed will give you higher vaults, but only if that speed is controlled enough to allow you to be in the right position/timing for the plant and takeoff.

[rainbowgirl28]

Peter McGinnis has the speed data for US Championships.

[The Archetype]

Here's a link to Peter's 2008 Report
Men:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=1LDw5YGJId2eN3RJK2U2h-WApcAPAe2cEuLb0glkgnXTs5EtN--9J-vux6ln6&hl=en&authkey=CKf5vZIN

Women:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=1KYZ4h4ak-jvbcUWlEDciJ1DD9iSK31Htp4kxWhBeByYX5NpAn_6aqHuAfecZ&hl=en&authkey=CJ_20b0L

You might need a gmail account to access it but I wasn't sure how else to share it..

[dj]

Good Morning PVP

I have, laying on the desk beside me, the 1984 McGinnis report from 1984 that includes jumps from UCLA/PEPSI and the Olympic Trials. Olson, Bell and Ripley from Pepsi (Tully didn't jump because of politics but jumped the next week at UCLA in a meet and set a new outdoor American record of 18-11) and Lytle and Tully at the 84 Trials in the Coliseum.

I also have a McGinnis report from 1987, two jumps from the IAAF indoor, Bubka 5.85 and Salbert 5.80, Tully at Pre, 5.75, Tully at TAC 5.70… I was never given the data for other US vaulters those were given to their individual coaches.

Tully 1984-Bar 5.81-Average Velocity- 9.6mps
Lytle 1984-Bar 5.71-Average Velocity- 9.5mps
Bell 1984-Bar 5.61-Average Velocity- 9.48mps

Bubka 1987-Bar 5.85-Average Velocity-9.5mps
Salbert 1987-Bar 5.80-Average Velocity-9.49mps
Tully 1987-Bar 5.75-Average Velocity-9.38mps

I have the German study from the 1997 Worlds in Athens and the McGinnis

2004 Men and Women's Approach Run Velocities.

The German Study wasn't very helpful, for me, many of the studies since Peter's 1987 study have "changed" seemingly what we should be looking for. I guess I'm "old school", there is no magic, or magic pole it's about, the "attack" speed from 6 steps out, the angle of the pole at takeoff,(of course correct takeoff point), maximum transfer of energy (force) at takeoff, maximum pole bend, speed of the vault (swing) getting the pole to vertical and maximum height above the grip…

.. …but it did make these points even though I couldn't find much "hard' data to know why..

Here is a list of the most notable Jumpers in 1997

Bubka
Tarasov
Starkey
Lobinger
Buckfield
Manson


Statesments from the German Study….

"Greater approach speeds permitted considerably higher grip positions and jumps."

"At the elite level the initial energy determines the initial conditions for good or poor jump performance."

"The results indicate that an optimum pole stiffness and length exists which would allow for the pole vaulter to jump to his maximum height."

"The difference between the energy decrease of the athlete and the pole energy indicates whether the pole elasticity was effectively used."

"The horizontal velocity values showed a pattern similar to that of the initial CM energy."

"Tarasov, Bubka and Starkey showed the highest "height of top hand" at takeoff."

"The various jumps from one athlete were always in the same group with one exception. Dean Starkey produced one jump at 5.80m which had different group characteristics than his other jumps. (I couldn't figure out from the charts what was different. ( I wish I had the data that I could understand about this jump. That to me, even though it was 14 years ago would give us so real insight to what we should be looking for)


Through out all these studies every researcher has stated that 60+% of all successful vaults are determined by approach run speed. That number should be higher, 80% or more, more in line with the long jump which is over 80% of a jumpers best jumps are their fastest approach run velocities, because the wrong grip to speed can create a failure just as quickly as miss placed standards, or too high of a grip.

So figure out your best speed and become a highly efficient vaulter at that speed.


From the 2004 Men's Trials there is only one piece of information I need to look at.

Time Mack's 5.90 jump, page 8..

Bar height 5.90-Velocity (m/s) 15-10m out 9.23-Velocity (m/s) 10-5m out 9.30-Result o (make)..

I know this jump and know all the details.. Grip 16-4, mid 54-8, TO 13-8, max pole bend and angles and the speed of the vault (swing).

This was one of the best jumps ever for efficacy.

Now please check my 6 Stride "MID" chart. 16-4 grip, 55 foot "MID" 9.3 mps……

Here I need to go back to 1983/84… When Peter started his USATF(TAC) work he met with the coaches of the best USA jumpers, I was coaching Tully. I had a copy of my chart and at the time the Meters Per Second column was in Feet Per Second(FPS) (because the "MID" 6 step mark was in feet) and I could time the jumper vertical touch down to vertical touch down and get my own idea as to how fast they were running… I did 100's maybe thousands of jumps going all the way back to Earl Bell in 1974 when I did 72 of his jumps with a super 8 camera, counted frames and matched the speed with the success and "MID" and for the first time added FPS to my 6 Stride "MID" chart.

When I met with Peter the first time I had converted the FPS numbers on my chart into MPS (because I knew he would be doing MPS) and had written them in the outside margin in pencil.

The long, long answer to the velocity question is to check the chart… the averages for each grip (potential height) are there. Check them, compare them, time your vaulters or yourselves, use them… if questions arise ask.

When you time your run time from the 6th step "vertical" (when the knees/thighs are parallel) to takeoff thighs vertical/parallel.

Yes the vault is a difficult event, and you can't make a "silk purse out of a sows ear" but we can, each and every one of us, all jump to our maximum God given talent, the way Tim Mack did on his 5.90 jump.

It's in the "Numbers", form (running and other wise) follows function.

On the women's side Stacy had 8.33 for a 4.70 vault.. Holliday had some 8.20/8.30's but no comparable bar heights, Chelsea had some 8.30's at the Trials with a 4.50 clearance. The average USA women ran 8.10. I don't know any of the grips.. but according to the efficiency I feel is evident from the chart someone with 8.33 speed (based on my research from the men/boys for 40 years) they should have a "MID" of 50'/15.30m, a grip of 14-11/4.55 and jump 5 meters. 8.10 should produce 16 foot vaults.

The only answer I have for this "discrepancy" is the women are hugely over striding, taking off low and/or under, with little vertical impulse. What is it??? Strength, technique.. I really don't know. But I do know that a high school boy can hit a 47 foot "MID" and jump well over 15 feet … a women hitting a 47 "MID" is seldom over 14 feet.

My answer to the correct technique and improved speed is to coach by the numbers… "MID" to Grip"… become efficient and as the efficiency improves the speed will improve, the "MID" will go out, the grip will go up and you will jump higher.

Later

dj

[VaultPurple]

I know there is alway the rumor of Bubka and a 10.1 m/s vault. But does anyone have the documented measurements of this? What meet and what did he jump?

What I am trying to do is calculate the energy put into the vault, and then how much energy they added after they leave the ground.

If Bubka were to run at 10.1 m/s then he would put in just enough kinetic energy to raise his center of mass about 17', and since his center of mass is probably about 3' off the ground that puts the vault at just over 20' (ie. the world record).

But in the 1987 vault if he was only running 9.5 m/s then he would have put in enough kinetic energy from the run to raise his center of mass 15' which is just over a 18' vault. But since he jumped 19'2 in that vault. Which means he added about 260 Joules of energy to the vault.

One of the goals to this is, had he used the same technique at the top of the vault would he have jumped 6.45 meters (which is the equivalent of what you would get from adding the extra 260J to a 10.1 m/s vault). And I know some people argue he has jumped close to that height, so maybe he was able to, just the bar was not there.

And I know that we are not in a vacuum and there is loss of energy in the pole and things like that. But the data is still very close to the real numbers we get from Bubka's vaults. Since 10.1m/s comes out to 6.12m vault and the energy added from the technique in the 1987 vault comes out to about 6.45m vault, which is what some people argue he should have been able to jump if he was not raising his PR 1cm at a time.

But as a side not: in Jenn Surr's 4.92 vault, she only added about 56J of energy to her vault. This amount of energy raised her vault 9cm. Because of her weight being less than that of Bubka's she needs less energy to raise her vault height, so if she were to put in enough energy to raise her vault 33cm more than just her speed allows (as Bubka did) you would get a vault of about 5.16m.

[dj]

hye

there is no doubt bubka could have jumped much higher... in the 87 vault his center of mass was 6.12 not just the 5.85 bar AND it was at 1.05cm deep from vertical. he was blowing through and had exited the pole at 1.11 (top hand release) seconds after TO. the pole had straightened at 1.02.

most other vaulters Tully 1987.. 5.75 vault, 5.81 CM.. Speed 9.38... pole straight @ 1.13 upper hand release at 1.32 !!! at .66cm we were staying on the pole to long. it's like throwing a discus... when you try to put more force on it at the end of the throwing at release you normally slow it down and put less force... if you simply continue a "follow through" at the speed you have already built up you will throw better..

in the vaulter you "swing" from the top of the pole as fast as you can... that doesn't mean you "swing and drop the feet and turn" you swing to vertical, wrapping the pole, up and off in one motion...

AND that told me the vaulter himself keeps the pole bent or allows for it to unbend by his actions... when the vaulter leaves the ground at TO his body weight is below horizontal to the ground and will put "loading forces" buy the swing action until it (CM) reaches a position Horizontal to the runway.. which should be at maximum pole bend according to me and Petrov.. then the pole will start it's "un load" or unbending unless the vaulter stops the mass their (tuck) by pushing on the pole with the left hand....

I remember in 1980 Tom Hinthaus described the vault as "run as fast as you can, plant high, crush the pole into a high bar and swing and shoot like a "free hip" into a handstand.

That was as good of a description to what I felt bubka was trying to do as any….it is also similar to what Volkov was doing in 1979.. maybe not the same thought process..

I think we have vaulters in the men who can reach the world record.. because Bubka showed us that 9.50 speed could produce vaults of 6.10 or more. Tim Mack showed that 9.3 to 9.5's could produce 5.90's and 6.00 meter jumps.

Follow the numbers.. Physics.. BUT you have to have the right pole with the right grip… on that 1987 Bubka jump he blew through.. with a 5.10 grip.. only 27.1% max pole bend… 5cm (2") of grip(5.15cm grip) would produce 10cm in vault height.. and slow the penetration.. ON THE SAME POLE>>> making it a 6.22m jump…

10cm grip (4") up (5.20cm) would produce a 20cm increase… making it a 6.32m jump…

where in this 5 to 10 cm grip raise would he still have pole speed, not blow through or not stall out...

I think the mistakes then and now are going to bigger poles instead of raising the grip when you did not over bend... 27% is not over bending.. the first article on Bubka, 1985 said he had 33% pole bend.......... i'm good with 30%... remember the athlete should bend and "unbend" the pole.. not the qualities of the pole.

"rule of thumb"

if you don't over bend and blow through... raise the grip
you over bend and blow through.. get the next pole..
you stall and don't over bend lower the grip or get a smaller pole..
you over bend and stall... lower grip
etc............



This is what the "numbers" lead me to.. with Tim Mack's speed he was getting Bubka "height above grip" or maybe better…we have many vaulters with enough speed……… I remember Tim Mack's numbers from 9 years before the 2004 season. 53-8 "MID" and 12-8/13-0 Takeoff!!!!

he needed to get those number to 54-6/55 feet to be in the top 5 US/World.. he was almost there in 2000 and did in 2004. He did it by Training his A$$ of.. posture, pole drop and exteemely good/great action on the pole.. Height above grip with a great swing.

I will copy the 5 pages of the Bubka jump.. and email them to you… give me your email in PM

Time from Training here..

dj

PS.. the women have great things to look forward too… and I think some of these young vaulters are going to show us.. that "they can jump like the boys" and produce some WR heights…

It's about the numbers for them also… Physics..

[Pogo Stick]

Does anyone have a list or a link to a list of the top vaulters over the past few years and what was their PR and the max speed achieved in the run in m/s?

For example.

Bubka
6.15m 10.1 m/s

I would really like to see the numbers for guys like that people would consider 'tuck and shooters'. But all numbers are welcome.

Data (including speed) from IAAF World Final 2007 in Stuttgart and World Championship Berlin 2009 were discussed here:
http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=20184&start=0

[dj]

Hye

I looked over the "numbers' for the 2008 McGinnis run velocities..

Of the top.. and nothing personal please…

Russ Buller… 9.76mps, 9.68mps average!! 5.60 make….. Should jump 5.95 on a regular basis..
Where was the breakdown? Was he fast but over striding so he had no "impulse" or the wrong connection to the pole at the plant? On the wrong pole? Grip? There was an answer that someone missed.

Jeff Hartwig.. 9.2-9.3mps… 5.70m make… correct for that speed…

Tim Mack…9.05mps.. 9.02mps… 5.50m make.. this is the speed for 5.50/5.55

Derek Miles…. 9.23mps---5.80m.make. good jump for the speed but where it should be for an elite (above average) vaulter.

Jacob Pauli… 9.52mps, 9.3 average 5.50m make… enough speed to jump 5.80 on a regular basis…

Jeremy Scott…8.96mps—5.50…make…. speed to jump height matching the numbers… to improve get faster on the runway...

Brad Walker….9.76mps.. 9.64mps…run through, run through… 5.65m vault.. apparent lack of "run control" or monitor..ie a correct six stride mark. Maybe bad winds.


I checked these numbers by the numbers on my chart…

I feel if all vaulters would do this they can then find where their own "breakdowns" are.

We continue to emphasize the run is 90% of the vault… these numbers verify that…

We all know it's not just "speed" at the takeoff.. it's speed and posture, correct planting action, out takeoff..etc… to have all these you MUST have the correct stride lenght and frequency..........

Why can't we also understand that we need to "monitor" from a point that has been given to you that is "scientifically correct. If you overstride you CANNOT have the correct posture, out, high or "free" takeoff that the physics of the event demands.

It was reported that the Jamacian was hitting a 41/41-6, 4 step "MID" check point. That is equal to a 54/55 6 step which is what Bubka was hitting when he jumped 6 meters…

First inclination is "oh he can be a Bubka!!!" No.. it's like me telling myself that I can run a world record in the hurdles just because I can three step!!! No because this athlete will learn to jump with a "overstride" run like many of the high school boys do here in America ( I saw 4 boys at the Nike-Greensboro High school meet doing the same thing 41 foot 4 step check!!! 17 footers)… and after learning this way they never get the speed to change in college and are not asked to change and then we get a perpetuation of the mistakes that Alan keeps trying to tell us we are making..

Well the answer is a correct run and learning to vault with speed and long runs… the chart is the place to start and gives you a self correcting tool that can be used in training.

dj