Pole Vault Manifesto

[altius]

It won't change my opinion because I know they are!

[altius]

"It won't change my opinion because I KNOW they are!" Perhaps that is the problem old son! As you will gather I love aphorisms, proverbs and saying of all kinds. So in this situation a couple come to mind -
"And fools rush in where angels fear to tread" or what about, " Some folk dont know enough to know how little they know". Your reaction is typical of novice coaches who believe that they have found the holy grail of vaulting that the other dumb bunnies out there have somehow missed. Well I am not a dumb bunny - nor are many of the contributors to pvp so I suggest you try and find out what they know before telling them what they have missed or not understood. Having a chat with Petrov, Parnov, Stewart, Baggett or even Bubka himself would be a good start - as would reading BTB2.

IF you do enough coaching you will discover that repetition of the fundamental drills is far more important - than the DETAILS that some folk on pvp love to debate, but which are largely irrelevant to helping kids become better pole vaulters.

[KirkB]

... tell me what part of my last post you felt was my own imagination?

"Flinging the head back violently" ... for starters.

He literally thrust the entire upper back neck and head in the most violent manner downward

Also I would be very curious to know if you felt that VERY important details are missing from many of these models?

No. The Petrov Model is almost perfect IMHO ... and well-documented. Easy for any high-school vaulter and any PV coach to read and adopt.

I'm not a proponent of the 640 Model, so no comment re missing details on that one. What OTHER models are you wondering about?

Kirk

[vaultman18]

This is something I sent Kirk a while back trying to explain the bottom arm pull. Roman is a friend of mine but I do not speak for him. This is a tough subject to grasp but to me all makes sense when thought of in terms of stiff pole vaulting. If you do not do stiff pole vaulting in your training you are making a mistake and may not understand the importance of this.

I wrote this to Kirk

One reason Roman did not say you were wrong about the "lat" pull is because you do pull with your lats. So technically you are correct. Here is where I think you are missing the idea. The "lats" are not the only muscles that pull. I can understand your thought pattern that the "lats" are the only muscles that pull. The problem is a vaulter can run, plant, take-off, lock the bottom arm and then pull with the "lats". Is this what you would do on a stiff pole? No of course not.

The answer lies in the stiff pole technique.

A major point I would make is that the run-up, plant and take-off must be preformed to a certain standard. When a vaulter takes-off under the bottom arm will counter act the under step and push. Or the pole will come extremely close smacking them in the face. The only way this critical element (the pull) can be activated in the vault is the correct step, plant and take-off. Too many vaulters have their plant, take-off and swing overlap. Thus making it impossible to preform a true "pull". From my experience most vaulters are terrified of taking-off "ON" to most a little under feels more safe.

So when the vaulter has preformed a solid run-up, correct pole drop, correct plant, and explosive jump-up with an on step (not under) the pull can take place after take-off. The vaulter cannot be in support of the pole and the ground at the same time "Free Take-off". If this is done the pole will load through the top hand and begin to bend. The swing will start unprompted and the pole will continue to bend away from the vaulter. As it does the vaulter should pull, lats first (I assume this) followed by the bicep directly into inversion. Exactly the same way the vaulter would on a stiff pole.

I am describing what I believe to be a perfect jump. Where I see this getting confusing for people is the idea that Bubka pushed the pole as it bent. On some jumps (under step) he may have pushed to preserve the jump. But on those jumps he wasn't going to make 6.40 he just needed the bar. But all these things put together [Run, Plant, Take-off, Swing/Pull to Invertion and push-off with no delays) make 6.40 possible.

In short the pull is a pull just as if you were trying to pull something to your chest. The way Roman explained it to me was this: I put my hands in the planting position (no pole), he grabbed my bottom hand and said pull as I pulled he pulled the opposite way. Now I wasn't ready which was the point, as I pulled, he pulled harder and I flew forward and by him. And then he explained the pole will pull harder than I could ever pull back (not connected to anything)

[PVDaddy]

Vaultman18 wrote;

The way Roman explained it to me was this: I put my hands in the planting position (no pole), he grabbed my bottom hand and said pull as I pulled he pulled the opposite way. Now I wasn't ready which was the point, as I pulled, he pulled harder and I flew forward and by him. And then he explained the pole will pull harder than I could ever pull back (not connected to anything)

When do you think the pole is Pulling that bottom hand,at point of coiling or uncoiling? Or in otherwords when its beeing loaded,or unloading you?

I said:

Bubkas left hand pull begins the moment that the pole begins to uncoil as a result he is delaying the uncoiling of the pole even longer and at the same time adding energy into the pole and himself which is getting him even that much further ahead of the pole as he is reaching vertical.

I can however see were some pulling of the Lats with the left hand would assist the swing but believe the Major pulling action begins WHEN the pole begins to uncoil.

This is about the time that I get ask who have I ever coached or who do I know just because Ive expressed my viewpoints and someone is afraid that I have forgotten that they are the pole vault god.

[vaultman18]

When do you think the pole is Pulling that bottom hand,at point of coiling or uncoiling? Or in otherwords when its beeing loaded,or unloading you?

The bending pole is pulling the bottom hand. If you wait until the pole begins to uncoil/unbend you have waited too long. The pull speeds up the inversion/swing and continues until turn and push off the pole. As I said in the other post all this is dependent on a lot of other factors. But with all those things in place the pull can immediately happen at the completion of the take-off. Anything other than a pull after take-off is passive and should be eliminated. There is a finite amount of time from take-off to max height and the faster the inversion is completed the higher you can jump. A vaulter can do as much gymnastics work he/she likes but if they are trying to hit positions -the pocket, the C, etc - the gymnastic work is not very effective.

I always knew that pushing was wrong even when I had various coaches tell me to do it. But the thought of pulling was hard to grasp at first. When I first started pole vaulting way back in high school I was self taught and stiff poled for almost an entire year. I was pretty proficient this way and was able to keep every thing moving up by pulling with the bottom hand. As I got more coaching I learned tricks to bend the pole like pushing but found inverting to be difficult. After meeting Roman and him explaining the vault only as a stiff pole exercise even if the pole bends it made sense. Alan wrote about this in his book, the bending pole is an infinite series of straight poles. If you accept this notion, the bottom arm pulls from completion of the take-off until the turn and push. I do accept that notion, as Alan put in the time to do the research. Teaching this is extremely difficult and is probably why no one except Roman has ever thought to do it.

I am a nobody who knows some great pole vault minds. I have been successful in my small community I take average high school kids to decent heights for our state. I rarely ever talk about who I have coached or how high I have jumped. I am not as good a coach as Alan or Roman or many others. I am a better pole vaulter than Alan but not as good as Roman or Kirk or many others on this site. The only thing that sets me apart is that I have put my money (very little I have) where my mouth is and brought Alan and Roman to my house and community to learn what I didn't know. And invited area vaulters and coaches to share in the experience. Words on a page are just that and can only go so far.

This site is great and can provide a lot of information but... It can also provide a lot of misinformation ( I realize some or many may think I am spreading the misinformation). I do know this Roman is light years ahead of most other coaches and his ideas scare a lot of people. And Alan is one of the worlds greatest teachers (not just pole vaulting) and that is why I have the views that I do.

Side note: I realize I brought up pushing and the only reason is because if you are not pulling what are you doing with bottom hand??? And if you are doing nothing with it then you have a passive phase.

Cheers

[tsorenson]

Good stuff, Vaultman18
For those who might be reading this that might not have read all 52 pages of this thread: in Roman's model "finishing the takeoff" includes a big drive of both hands up and through the takeoff to get the pole moving...the takeoff doesn't end the moment your toe leaves the ground! He's trying to super-emphasize the active phases and try to eliminate all passive phases, and his model takes into consideration that the pull action is not instantaneous, but instead follows a proper takeoff.

You won't be able to grip very high if you try to pull right off the ground without getting the pole moving with a high, free takeoff and strong drive. Hmm, sounds just like stiff pole vaulting...

I agree with Kirk and others that throwing the head back is not something to be taught to vaulters. Instead, I like to emphasize "driving (or popping) your hips up." This by default gets the hips above the shoulders without making vaulters learn the bad habit of throwing the head back (dangerous and usually makes the hips/legs drop away from the pole).
Tom

[KirkB]

Thanks Vaultman, for sharing our PM. It was yours to share ... not mine ... and you do make perfect sense in your explanation ... and it all follows the Laws of Physics.

I was the one that prompted you into chiming in on this thread, and as I've already stated, I have a lot of respect for your opinion and your insight in the 640 Model ... you'ved LIVED it! Now is not the time to get picky about the relatively minor differences of opinion that I have on what's practical about the model and what's still only theoretical. I'll just say here that the model is easier said than done ... especially for anyone sub-elite.

Compared to the misinformation that Daddy is flogging, what Vaultman has written is top-notch technical stuff.

Now on to Daddy's imagination ...

When do you think the pole is Pulling that bottom hand,at point of coiling or uncoiling? Or in otherwords when its beeing loaded,or unloading you?

I said:

Bubkas left hand pull begins the moment that the pole begins to uncoil as a result he is delaying the uncoiling of the pole even longer and at the same time adding energy into the pole and himself which is getting him even that much further ahead of the pole as he is reaching vertical.

I can however see where some pulling of the Lats with the left hand would assist the swing but believe the Major pulling action begins WHEN the pole begins to uncoil.

Vaultman has already replied to this point quite well, but I just want to emphasize it ...

Daddy, to conclude from Vaultman's explanation that the MAJOR pulling action begins when the pole begins to uncoil is proof that you've totally missed the point of "the pull". The MAJOR pulling action is immediately upon takeoff. The pole does not begin to uncoil until after the chord is at its shortest, which is roughly when the trail leg is passing the chord.

This is WAY WAY after the instant in time that Vaultman is referring to ... as he's explaining what Roman personally told him. I understand Vaultman's explanation ... and buy it ... totally. I just think it's just really, really ... EXTREMELY hard ... for a mere mortal to time up that way.

I will argue one point tho ... perhaps just to stir the pot a little ...

I do not believe that doing NOTHING with the bottom arm is passive. The reason is that the rest of your body ... in its entirety ... is in an extremely ACTIVE state while the bottom arm "does nothing".

My argument is that whilst the bottom arm is doing "nothing", it's doing exactly what it SHOULD be doing ... for that short duration of time. As the pre-stretch is completing, my opinion is that the bottom arm should BEGIN to pull. Prior to that (but after the pole is planted), the bottom arm SHOULD do nothing ... it should just be used for balance. My opinion only ... based on my personal experience of what works and what doesn't work.

And as the bottom arm begins to pull, it should pull at an accelerating rate ... and FOLLOW the initiation of the swing by the trail leg whip. Not INITIATE the swing. This needs to be a perfectly smooth acceleration, as a jerky acceleration is fraught with leakage (you waste gas by pumping the gas pedal). I believe the FOLLOWING action of the bottom arm pull (in conjunction with a simultaneous top arm pull, BTW) is more efficient than the proposed 640 Model INITIATING bottom arm action.

Again, this is just my not-so-humble opinion, which I appreciate is counter to Vaultman's and Roman's equally valid (if not more valid ... and more educated) opinions. But wait ... I haven't made my point yet ...

Related to violently jerking your head back (as Daddy claims Bubka does ) ... let me ask you this ... if the head stays aligned with the spine ... as most coaches will agree to be "proper technique" ... then is the head in a passive state by staying aligned?

After all, Roman and Vaultman say that all passive states should be eliminated! And I AGREE with that assertion! So should the head be jerked back ... or even tucked forward ... eliminate its passive state?

Of course the question is ridiculous ... and of course the head should "do nothing" ... BECUZ THAT'S WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO AT THAT POINT IN TIME!

Ditto the bottom arm ... DURING THAT SHORT DURATION OF TIME!

Kirk

[vault3rb0y]

The only way to continue to invert and move the pole is through muscles whose contraction will help in the inversion, AKA muscles that contract your anterior chain- hip flexors, core, lats, etc. Your head is not connected to anything, so leaving it still or spinning it in circles is not going to make a difference in your inversion.

Vaultman, I just want to thank you for that. We beat around the bottom arm issue plenty, and your summation makes perfect sense. Now to try to coach that... i guess the best thing to do would be to coach a perfect take off first!! I'm sure that if you leave the ground and perfectly finish your take off just as the pole hits the back of the box, pulling right off the ground probably makes a lot more sense! All us over-lappers of take off and swing would get hammered trying this for real!

[golfdane]

Your head is not connected to anything, so leaving it still or spinning it in circles is not going to make a difference in your inversion.

I sure hope the head is connected to something

Now, most beginners are able to do inversions on a highbar if they are allowed to throw back the head. Try doing inversions with your chin tucked. It certainly becomes much harder. I don't advocate throwing back the head. IMO should the head stay neutral to the spine, but visual focus should be around your bottom hand at take-off. On a real vault, will most vaulter tuck their chin slightly when inverted, to get better visuals for the bar clearance.

[vault3rb0y]

Lol i thought that might come up. Of course it is connected to something, and perhaps putting it backwards may trigger other muscles to fire or relax unconciously to help in an inversion, however it is not a necessary action.

[golfdane]

Lol i thought that might come up. Of course it is connected to something, and perhaps putting it backwards may trigger other muscles to fire or relax unconciously to help in an inversion, however it is not a necessary action.

I agree.