I have neither the time nor the energy to contribute much more to this debate but would simply say that Roman identified some issues that had not been dealt with previously in the literature. For him the 6.40 model was in effect what Bubka was already using -like many soviet vaulters of that time he had seen Bubka vault close to 6.40 on many occasions - just that the bar wasnt there to record the height. . His manifesto in effect clarifies some aspect of the petrov model that no one - even Petrov -has published previously, perhaps because they are so obvious to Vitali that he didnt feel the need to do so OR because he knows that much of what the athlete does after they leave the ground is intuitive - and therefore so difficult to explain or describe that it would not be worth the effort. Certainly the notion of pulling after take off is counter intuitive for many coaches -as it was for me until I eventually sorted it out - at least to my own satisfaction.
pvdaddy - Would very much like to know the details of who you are coaching and/or who you have coached?? Sorry but I dont know you - but I do know that vaultman 18 is a highly committed coach, a real student of the event - and a very good friend of mine.
Pole Vault Manifesto
- altius
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden
Re: Pole Vault Manifesto
good morning
dj
PETROV
Pole Drop
This final 3rd part of the run is characterized by the increased rate of the run while the length of the stride remains the same, thus achieving the maximum speed of the run-up. The length of the strides is a little shorter as compared to sprint, the body is straightened. The length of the strides should not change abruptly. The 2nd last step is longer than the last one by 10-20 cm (optional).
This part in covered in 6 strides and equals to 17,0 – 17,5 m (shown by top athletes of the world) if measured from the back of the box.
The key to the correct vaulting technique lies in practically all the movements of the drop and push part of the run-up – both for the beginners and for more advanced vaulters.
Without changing the running pace and running position, 6 to 5 strides before the push, the vaulter begins the drop. This is done with the help of pulling and rotation (initial) of the right hand.
During the next two run-up strides (4-3 steps) the vaulter’s attention is focused on the slight thrust of the hips forward without losing control over the shoulders, maintaining their leading role in the run-up.dj note...Above.. , the body is straightened, would indicate erect posture… and in the above paragraph he says about the run.. “slight thrust of the hips forward” he follows this very quickly with… “without losing control over the shoulders, maintaining their leading role in the run-up.” Which to me means to stay with good sprint mechanics and “push” from the hip and be very careful to not reach with the foot or lean back but maintain solid posture, “feet under, increased frequency and leading with the shoulders”………………..
While the right hand is being pulled, the right elbow is gradually drawn behind the back, thus making it possible during the last two run-up steps to lift the right hand with the pole up to the right shoulder.
The left hand remains at the same level as 6 steps before the push; while slightly moving ahead, it controls the height and advancement of the pole. Two steps before the push, the pole is a little higher – 10-15 cm above the vaulter’s center of gravity.
All these movements cannot be considered as a static position; the vaulter has already begun the drop 4 steps back, and here the pole simply crosses its horizontal line.
The drop must not be abrupt (if the vaulter was not late in initiating it), it must fall within the rhythm of the last strides.
When making the last two steps of the drop, the vaulter should not “lose” the pole by stretching the left arm forward (as if looking for support, the box). All the movements during the drop take place while the left hand is kept over the left elbow. During the last 6 strides, and especially during the last 3 steps, the vaulter must keep the abdominal muscles tight without breaking the line of his advancement; this will help him to drive the shoulders back even before the drop. A very important detail of the drop that will save him from squatting at the penultimate step, is riding the pole over the head before the vaulter arrives at the vertical position of the right leg. If he does it on time, then the right foot will take an active step on the late, beginning to accelerate to pole for the plant. The most dangerous moment during the drop is an early touch of the box when the transition is made from the right to the take-off foot.
Take-off and penetration
The efficiency of this phase depends on the vaulter’s skill in the drop/take-off junction, on whether he is able to begin the push before the pole is set against the box. The pole must be smoothly transferred to the plant position when the vertical take-off plane is crossed. The technically correct movement demonstrates the right acceleration of the pole by the moment the vaulter reaches the vertical take-off plane.Free takeoff………………
The left arm is not trying to bend the pole; it plants it firmly towards the bar and then transfers the effort to the right hand, so that the pole is bent by the impact of the vaulter’s speed and mass. The vaulter, alert to the resilience of the pole, must perform all the subsequent actions on the pole as on a rigid support.
The primary purposes of the support-pushing part of the jump are as follows:
1. to perform the drop and plant with minimal losses in horizontal speed at the angle of 20-22º, i.e. at a tangent to the future swing on the pole;
2. maximum transfer of kinetic energy to the pole by means of the impact made by the “pivotal” junction.
Of great importance in pole vaulting is the depth of the body advancement forward during the take-off. With this in mind, even during the take-off the athlete must release the shoulder girdle from tension and drive his chest forward/upward, while at the same time taking off with the support leg and swinging with the free leg.Elastic shoulders………………….
The quickness and depth of the take-off greatly influence the technique of all the next elements of the vault: the hang, swing and rock-back. Moreover, the performance of the take-off phase determines the rhythm of the subsequent parts of the vault.
The take-off point of the top pole vaulters of the world is somewhere within 420-440 cm from the back of the box. The taller vaulters take off at a distance of 410-420 cm, shorter ones do it at 430-440 cm.
Continued acceleration of the last 4 strides is an indication of good skills acquired in this part of the pole vault (pole drop/plant). The speed of Sergei Bubka shown in his best vaults continued to grow until the take-off, as follows:
4 strides before take-off: 9.5 m/sec
2 strides before take-off: 9.7 m/sec
before take-off: 9.9 m/sec.
Recommendations for the take-off phase:
1. Begin the pole acceleration for the “push” already from the swinging leg
2. Before the take-off leg contacts the ground the vaulter needs to create a maximum space between him and the pole. His arms must be stretched, the right (left) arm continues the line of his body, whereas the left (right) arm is at right angle the pole axis.
3. Before the vertical position the vaulter tries to increase this space to the maximum, whereas ever since, and during the whole movement from the take-off he must aim to “rush” as deep upward as possible, trying to reach the left elbow with his head.dj note
3. Before the vertical position the vaulter tries to increase this space to the maximum, whereas ever since, and during the whole movement from the take-off he must aim to “rush” as deep upward as possible, trying to reach the left elbow with his head.
i want to emphasize this... forward and upward... also.. he states extending the left arm up toward the crossbar at the plant... and 20 degress forward and upward...........
4. The foot is placed for the take-off firmly with a quick roll-up on the ball of the foot. The vaulter must pay more attention to the swing with the right leg bent to a maximum in order to move the hips forward, trying to keep the shoulders in the front position, until the end of the hang.
Swing-up and rock-back
Having moved the chest and hips forward during the hang the vaulter begins to draw the shoulders back – mainly through the effort of the shoulder girdle muscles, thus switching the rotation axis from hands to shoulders.
Question: Is the drop of the swinging leg during the hang losing its importance?
Answer: At present the athletes and their coaches pay more attention to the quickness and the amplitude (depth) of the “drive” on the pole than to the external observance of the position. After the shoulder girdle muscles “switch on”, the vaulter strongly swings his whole body upwards. The rotation axis goes through his shoulder girdle. In this case the swing on the pole is forceful and quick. The pole is bent to the maximum when the athlete’s body takes a horizontal position to the ground, and the shins of the bent legs pass by the bent pole and are raised to the level of the head and shoulders. It is worth mentioning here that the arrest of the shoulders after the deep penetration ensures the drive of the hips upwards to the pole, through active unbending of the left arm, whereas the acceleration of the vaulter’s hips drive upwards was built up by the turn of the shoulders back and down.
dj
Re: Pole Vault Manifesto
PVDaddy wrote:Kirk, please describe for me how you jump upward and stretch your take off foot so far backward at the same time? This is not a trick question I need to know how one does that?
When taking of at an angle, does the propulsive force go in the opposite direction (more or less). That's why the take-off leg is so far backward. The stretch "happens" because of what he is doing at take-off to propel himself of in a given direction.
Last edited by golfdane on Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
- altius
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto
"The stretch "happens" because of what he is doing at take-off to propel himself of in a given direction". Right on man -and for no other reason!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden
Re: Pole Vault Manifesto
hey
ditto... all a result of a correct takeoff...
of note is that Petrov says to not "fight" the penetration but to ...
dj
Of great importance in pole vaulting is the depth of the body advancement forward during the take-off. With this in mind, even during the take-off the athlete must release the shoulder girdle from tension and drive his chest forward/upward, while at the same time taking off with the support leg and swinging with the free leg.
ditto... all a result of a correct takeoff...
of note is that Petrov says to not "fight" the penetration but to ...
must release the shoulder girdle from tension and drive his chest forward/upward
dj
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto
There has never been any doubt to me that Bubka pulls after take off, but what I am focusing on is WHEN Bubka pulls after take off! AS I have previously posted,I believe that when and how he pulls is one of many critical details that has made him superior in his left hand pull to any other human standard so far. Bubkas left hand pull begins the moment that the pole begins to uncoil as a result he is delaying the uncoiling of the pole even longer and at the same time adding energy into the pole and himself which is getting him even that much further ahead of the pole as he is reaching vertical. "Now for the Magic!" (Coining the expression that even Neo-Vault used to describe his incredible pull as he is covering the arc of the pole before he has laid back his shoulders.) I guess someone else agrees with me anyway. He literally thrust the entire upper back neck and head in the most violent manner downward to get in the full "I "inverted position as he THROWS the elbow and back of the hand down on the Bearing point of the Pole as his entire body is thrown vertically upward (The human Dart). I do not believe that he is emphasizing left hand pull at take off but the right hand from maximum stretch plays the leading role in his swing.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto
"Coining the expression that even Neo-Vault used to describe his incredible pull as he is covering the arc of the pole before he has laid back his shoulders." You might want to check where in Neovault that statement comes from !!!!!! You find that enlightening!
But you still havent given me any indication or who you do coach - or have coached. Note the aphorism below.
But you still havent given me any indication or who you do coach - or have coached. Note the aphorism below.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto
Pretty good day today. My kid added 1 ft. to his PB today after improvement on pole drop, and left hand pull for a total increase this season of 3FT 2 inches on a pole that is to light with standards set at 28. Still a pretty good improvement and mental state for heading into States on Saturday. Maybe were learning a few things afterall.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto
Altius could this perhaps be the statement in Neovault that your refering to? Could you perhaps be the one making that statement and perhaps even the author of the article? Just a guess?
Does just his back drive down toward the pit or is his upper back,neck, and head violently thrown down toward the pad? There is a big difference between those two statements!
Were was the mention of his VIOLENT left hand pull? Was that not a very important element of his hips getting punched upward? Were was the mention of WHEN the left hand pull should begin?
A very informational and beneficial article but also a great illustration of were VERY important details are not emphasized enough.
Then the magic! From the position ‘covering the pole’, Bubka punched the hips upwards as the his back drives back and down towards the pad. Figures 3a and b. This action puts even more energy into the pole so that it remains flexed for milliseconds longer and, most importantly, positions the athlete tight with the pole so they can be projected in a vertical upwards spiral along its axis as it straightens.
Does just his back drive down toward the pit or is his upper back,neck, and head violently thrown down toward the pad? There is a big difference between those two statements!
Were was the mention of his VIOLENT left hand pull? Was that not a very important element of his hips getting punched upward? Were was the mention of WHEN the left hand pull should begin?
Bubkas left hand pull begins the moment that the pole begins to uncoil as a result he is delaying the uncoiling of the pole even longer and at the same time adding energy into the pole and himself which is getting him even that much further ahead of the pole as he is reaching vertical. "Now for the Magic!" (Coining the expression that even Neo-Vault used to describe his incredible pull as he is covering the arc of the pole before he has laid back his shoulders.) I guess someone else agrees with me anyway. He literally thrust the entire upper back neck and head in the most violent manner downward to get in the full "I "inverted position as he THROWS the elbow and back of the hand down on the Bearing point of the Pole as his entire body is thrown vertically upward (The human Dart).
A very informational and beneficial article but also a great illustration of were VERY important details are not emphasized enough.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto
Interesting dialogue here, but I wish you guys would use quotes properly. It's really hard to tell who's saying what. The word QUOTE in square brackets without the slash goes before the citation, and the word QUOTE with the slash goes after. For example ...
To see how this quote is constructed, click on the QUOTE button and take a look at it.
But more to the point, Daddy, you need to separate what you're quoting Altius as saying from what YOU'RE saying, since he wrote the book, and you're apparently a self-professed fledgling father-coach.
Nice job on your son's 3-2 PR this season BTW ... you must be doing SOMETHING right!
Don't mean to offend you, becuz I really think you're a fast learner ... but you haven't reached the upper echelons that Altius has yet ... not by a long shot!
Your "astute" analysis of Bubka's technique only goes so far ... some of it's your imagination.
Kirk
This is a quote.
To see how this quote is constructed, click on the QUOTE button and take a look at it.
But more to the point, Daddy, you need to separate what you're quoting Altius as saying from what YOU'RE saying, since he wrote the book, and you're apparently a self-professed fledgling father-coach.
Nice job on your son's 3-2 PR this season BTW ... you must be doing SOMETHING right!
Don't mean to offend you, becuz I really think you're a fast learner ... but you haven't reached the upper echelons that Altius has yet ... not by a long shot!
Your "astute" analysis of Bubka's technique only goes so far ... some of it's your imagination.
Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto
Your right Kirk I have to learn how to use this forum reply properly. The last quote was my own and I should have made that more clear. English was not my strong suit as I always found it very boring so please forgive my punctuation and spelling errors as well.
But to get to the point. Please tell me what part of my last post you felt was my own imagination?
Also I would be very curious to know if you felt that VERY important details are missing from many of these models? It won't change my opinion because I know they are! Perhaps I am the only one seeing that but thats ok with me.
I am a self professed rookie pole vault coach who has spent the past 30 years studying The techniques of body mechanics in GREAT detail. Thousands of hours of study I am guessing?
But to get to the point. Please tell me what part of my last post you felt was my own imagination?
Also I would be very curious to know if you felt that VERY important details are missing from many of these models? It won't change my opinion because I know they are! Perhaps I am the only one seeing that but thats ok with me.
I am a self professed rookie pole vault coach who has spent the past 30 years studying The techniques of body mechanics in GREAT detail. Thousands of hours of study I am guessing?
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.
Re: Pole Vault Manifesto
I should post something here but I am not sure what area to go to... Hmmmmm. Maybe the fact that I have been coaching for 30 years, studied under 4 people that were very much better than me, have taught school for 28 years (skill based, Carpentry) and have confessed to being being dumber than people thought I was. I think I will continue to watch. One word of advice, You learn more from listening than talking.
Rick Baggett
WSTC
Rick Baggett
WSTC
Good coaching is good teaching.
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