13 year old NY state record holder

[KirkB]

... She's "monkey gripping" her left ...

Hmm ... that's a good observation, Barefoot. Hadn't noticed that!

Kirk

[altius]

"So how about letting us know what was missed. It's killing me now." Let us allow a few other folk have a poke at this first. There will be bonus points for anyone who suggests the drill that might cure the problem!!!!!!

Thanks you for your kind remarks -they are really appreciated. i will pass them on to Roman.

[rainbowgirl28]

OK I will take a stab at it...

It looks like maybe she is regripping with her top hand as she lifts the pole to plant?

And it also looks like her right knee is turning out to the right as she swings up? Kind of hard to tell with the camera angles.

Are either of those what you are referring to Alan?

[Andy_C]

I am trying to use this fairly rare but major fault to help young coaches build their coaches eye. As agapit observed some time ago "Spoon feeding only prepares you to recognise the spoon" which is why I have framed my comments as a question rather than a statement.

And indeed this is the same exact philosophy that is employed in teaching doctors. Tutors do not give answers instead they ask more questions and mediate discussions. I agree this is of tremendous value for the coaches' eye especially for youngsters like myself. I would also like to add that the entire process of sleuthing this problem is also of huge importance. We're always taught that it's not what you know - it's how you think. What you know can be developed at any time; how you think is much more difficult to practice and you should take any opportunity you can to do so.

To that degree, I would promote that the coaches' eye consists more of just the actual eye, but it also involves the cognitive response that occurs in the coaches' mind. Alas, something may be in your field of sight but unless you are thinking properly you may never be aware of it nor will you know how to respond. Since the chances are that I possess no knowledge of this problem having never seen or experienced it before, I would have to turn to my thought processing and what I see. In turn I see this little exercise as exponentially beneficial in developing knowledge (what the problem is) and thought (how to find/solve it).

I would like to participate in Alan's exercise by just "logging" down my thoughts as I go through them. I find this beneficial and I was going to do it anyway but since I'm writing them down on a notepad I might as well put them up here on PVP. I hope somebody finds this useful, regardless I was going to write it down anyway...


First of all, I have to admit the point that I don't know what I'm looking for - if I have seen it before, I was never aware of it. My training tells me to always go back to the basics. Always simplify the situation in order to isolate factors.

First of all are there any hints to help me?
By all indications this is a technical error (not a physical or mental issue) so I will focus on technique.

Alan says it's incredibly important and needs to be fixed immediately. That could indicate what part of the vault it's in because of the teaching priorities of my coaching training:
1) Take Off
2) Plant
3) Run
4) Swing
Chances are it's in (or immediately before or after) the take-off due to it's importance. This is not to rule out the other possibilities however, it just a mental note in my mind that there is an increased probability that the problem is located at or around the take off.

Alan also says he's only ever seen it in girls (so far). I would then have to think about the relevant differences between male and female vaulters with regards to technique. Though 2 cases is statistically insignificant and could be purely coincidental - this is just something that has to be taken into consideration since I've really got nothing else! But again it could be a red herring.

Lastly, he says it's incredibly rare so the chances of me seeing it in other vaulters is very slim. As a result there would probably be very little literature or material regarding this specific issue. There remains the possibility that it's in Beginner to Bubka since Alan wrote the book so I will use that as a reference to my study.

In an ideal situation, I would be able to work with the vaulter in order to practically break things down:
If I was with the vaulter, I would like to see her performance at (what is arguably) our most valued drill, short step take off jumps with the pole and landing on the mat. At first even carry over the shoulder and in the sand pit just to eliminate most aspects of the drop and plant. I want to absolutely isolate the take off as much as possible so I can observe it closely. I would specifically look for an active foot plant and jump as well as an active pole plant upwards to enable her to "grow through the pole" - that's a funny phrase, I don't know how else to explain it at the moment and I don't want to get too carried away with an explanation right now. I would also be looking for the correct action of all the limbs - no pulling in particular with solid/safe/secure movements. Also looking for correct body posture - body as solid as possible, in "the dish" or "the bowl" (a Russian term for the correct posture, Vincenzo Canali discusses this posture a lot over videos) if she is developed enough. I would like to note if she loses posture after take off or if she never has it in the first place. I don't expect a 13 year old girl to have the perfect posture down pat simply due to physical development but the degree of error in posture is a consideration. There are more things to consider but those are the main ones.

If I do not find anything in particular with the take off, I would move to the mat and do two step jumps with the pole starting close to horizontally at the hips. At this point a greater part of the drop and plant will be introduced into the equation for assessment. This drill will allow me to isolate the last three steps (left, right, take off) of the vault with the corresponding plant motion (up, two, plant). I would check all of the aspects of the take off as previously mentioned as well as now looking for all the right things in the latter plant. Additionally, I would keep a keen eye for any alterations of the take off precipitated by the introduction of the latter segment of the drop and plant. This might be indicative of a problem in the latter plant which manifests in the take off (which would have been previously okay), I would then scrutinize the latter plant more intensely if I see this happening. If I see no change in the result of the take off, I would take a closer look at the latter plant alone especially from multiple angles.

This is just a little algorithm I use to break down pole vault problems - or anything that has complex movements. Break down the movement, isolate elements and rebuild slowly. Test it while you rebuild and see if something happens. I would continue doing this with a bigger run (up to 8 steps) and then progress on to the swing. But keeping in mind that Alan said "fix ASAP" - I think that the problem is most likely to do with the take off or immediately just prior or after it.

As for an answer right now: I think Becca has a good point with the top hand. While I don't think she's re-gripping (changing height - that would be my definition of re-gripping but I can see where you're going with that term), it looks like she's open handed and it's definitely not a solid grip until very very close to the take off foot hitting the ground (I think I need better video quality to be 100% sure). That could be really dangerous especially if she runs under and would warrant attention asap. I would fix that with 1 and 2 step jumps, first in the sand pit and then progressively into the mat - the initially with both hands over the shoulder (emphasizing grip) and then later on with the latter drop and plant (emphasizing grip again). I could also do plant drills with emphasis again on the top hand grip being solid but taking it back to the basic 1-2 step jumps is what I would always do. This answer seems to fit the bill: more visible in the drills videos, requires fixing asap, difficult to correct later because it can be overlooked and overdeveloped. If this isn't it I'll continue with my "deconstruction" with a detailed look into the videos. I'm not sure if people want to keep hearing me babble on but I thought it's a great exercise and it helps a lot with clarifying your own thoughts. Perhaps I've given somebody else some ideas that will lead on to the correct answer as well. But for now I believe Becca's answer with the top hand is correct!

-Andrew

P.S. I also think that these "what would you do?" exercises are great! If anything else I would like to thank mj and his daughter for putting this online and giving us an opportunity for this little exercise - and also Alan for facilitating/moderating it! These things I do like!

[Barefoot]

Becca is right that she's re-gripping with the top (if we mean she's re-gripping as she raises the pole), and that turn out with the right leg is very unusual... The re-grip is likely due to a tight grip with the left, loose with the right. Combined with a downward turned left wrist, her palm is facing down at the plant. But is any of that unusual? I've seen that before. The turned out leg is unusual, but I think she's compensating for the body's tendency to helicopter, or spin counter-cockwise in the vault because of her grip.

I'd go back and start with slow motion plants, correcting the grip, wrist and hand position. Progress through plant drills, grass vaults, pit bumps, sand vaulting, and planting at a bungee over the runway for height with focus on the correct hand/wrist positions and the creation of space over her head. Petrov makes the point that a high plant is due to the action of the left arm and hand, not the right. And the right is responsible for controlling the plant action, with the left as a pivot for the drop. To achieve a solid plant, she needs to change how she grips the pole. I prefer to fix one thing at a time and usually earlier in the vault sequence rather than later. So I'd start with the hands... I think that unusual leg is a symptom of the plant... I'm up to 3 cents now.

[rainbowgirl28]

Isinbayeva grips the pole with her top hand open and bottom hand tight. It's not an inherently evil style, but it's important that the athlete be able to lift the pole without changing their grip and that they are able to plant with a firm grip.

[KirkB]

Isinbayeva grips the pole with her top hand open and bottom hand tight. It's not an inherently evil style, but it's important that the athlete be able to lift the pole without changing their grip and that they are able to plant with a firm grip.

I think Karmen's top hand is just fine. She closes it in plenty of time for a firm grip.

I think Karmen's bottom grip is the one that needs the work. If I were House's intern, I'd recommend rings and highbar as the cure ... but then again I recommend that for everything from cancer to the common cold. I don't expect that to be the right answer (I'm sure the answer lies in how she plants), but it's notable that she's doing so well with such little experience ... so she probably still hasn't learned yet how to HANG on the pole properly. If you can't hang and swing on rings or highbar properly, it's double tough to do it on a pole.

The REASON that Isi ... and many other elite vaulters ... have an open grip with the top hand is so that they can raise the pole above their head without roundhousing or shoveling. With an open grip, it's much easier to keep the pole close to your body as it slides up "thru" the shoulder.

So it's not evil at all ... it's actually OPTIMAL!

Kirk

[Barefoot]

Becca and Kirk... Isi practices her plant with a tightly closed right grip, and very loose left. And watching her competitions, it's fairly evident her left is loose, you can see her left fingers wiggle during the plant, not evidence of a tight left. I speculate that despite the open fingers on her right hand, she has a fairly tight vice with her thumb and forefinger. I have had several vaulters who have struggled with their plant for precisely this inversion of grip, and I was partly to blame for tolerating the tight left hand during the formative stages. Petrov's speech at Reno, as well as Butler's changed my mind. Oddly, I was led to the grip problem because of faults I saw during the swing.

Also... Isi has some SERIOUS sticky on that top hand which precludes the pole twisting in her top hand, she couldn't re-grip if she tried.

[Andy_C]

Isinbayeva grips the pole with her top hand open and bottom hand tight. It's not an inherently evil style, but it's important that the athlete be able to lift the pole without changing their grip and that they are able to plant with a firm grip.

While the "open grip" is used by top athletes during the carry (Hooker as well), they will secure their top hand before moving both hands upward. The thing I see with this girl is that her top hand is still open (to a degree) even after it's gone above her shoulders. In fact, in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li5VGt0CVQo

I don't think her hand is 100% secure until maybe less than half a second just before the pole hits the back of the box.

It may not be the thing that Alan is talking about but I still think it needs to be fixed. She may not be rotating the pole up properly and the soft side might be misaligned - it's a possibility. It's also a possibility that she's rotating the pole with the left hand - I need a closer look I think. But that might go on to explain her strange left hand. You may go onto even saying that it's the left hand that's predominantly doing the plant.

Anyway, just thinking about what Alan said: it is a major problem and needs to be fixed asap. It just sounds important and imperative. Considering that the likes of taking off under as well as pulling/rowing has been mentioned and they were not the correct answer, it makes me think that this has to be 'bigger' and even more fundamental than many of the very technical responses given (including a lot of my own). And not holding on to the pole properly is a big fundamental mistake.

And also, Barefoot is right about Isi's grip - she uses a "slip ring" left hand in order to rotate the pole and allow it to pass upwards. This lets her move the pole up without loosening the grip on the top while keeping both hands behind the pole at the plant. This is also something that Karmen needs to pick up.

-Andrew

[KirkB]

Becca and Kirk... Isi practices her plant with a tightly closed right grip, and very loose left. ...

Take a look at her vid here ...

http://www.stabhochsprung.com/ 08.07.2006 Paris/FRA

Clearly, her LEFT grip is tight, and her RIGHT grip is loose. But I like to refer to top hand and bottom hand so ... her BOTTOM grip is tight, and her TOP grip is loose. I think that's what you meant to say.

Kirk

[Barefoot]

Kirk... I don't think Isi has a tight bottom grip. I think she "practices" a tight top grip. I think Karmen may be getting the "monkey grip" from an incorrectly held tight bottom grip... I could be wrong.

[superpipe]

I'll assume the "high left elbow plant motion" is the biggest problem here. On that note, my drill suggestion for fixing the problem would be 2-left pole runs with a full plant and take-off. When I say pole run, I mean on the track away from the runway. The key is starting the with the pole alittle above parallel to the ground AND with the left arm elbow DOWN and TUCKED into the rib cage. Start the pole run with a right foot first step so her second step will be her first left foot contact and where she starts her plant motion FOCUSING on raising both hands up high during the plant motion, not raising the left elbow during the plant motion. I look at this as a very simple drill where it's easy to keep focus on the right plant motion while combining it with the whole part run and take-off. A more simplified version of the basic 3-left approach since your first left foot contact is your penultimate step.

The "monkey grip" is caused by the "high left elbow plant motion". Plus, Andy_C did already mentioned this:

Her hand is wrapped around the left side of the pole rather than supporting it from behind.