Rope Vaulting - Yay or Nay?

[KirkB]

Kirk, you're just speculating as to what Bubka was emphasizing, based on what you see in one video.

Sorry RG, this is not speculating. This is observing this one video (yes ... just this one vid ... I'm not inferring anything broader than this one vid) ... and telling you what I see. Had he not had a quick and powerful DOWNSWING ... and had he not shortened the radius of his legs during the UPSWING ... to increase his momemtum ... he would not finish the vault as easily. I'm not imagining this ... I know what to look for ... and I know what I see.

Been there ... done that.

Kirk

[rainbowgirl28]

Kirk, you're just speculating as to what Bubka was emphasizing, based on what you see in one video.

Sorry RG, this is not speculating. This is observing this one video (yes ... just this one vid ... I'm not inferring anything broader than this one vid) ... and telling you what I see. Had he not had a quick and powerful DOWNSWING ... and had he not shortened the radius of his legs during the UPSWING ... to increase his momemtum ... he would not finish the vault as easily. I'm not imagining this ... I know what to look for ... and I know what I see.

Been there ... done that.

Kirk

But you don't know that that particular element of the drill is what he was emphasizing or focusing on. It could be a side effect of other things he was focusing on.

I'm not arguing that he DID it, I am arguing that it was something he consciously focused on.

[KirkB]

... But you don't know that that particular element of the drill is what he was emphasizing or focusing on. It could be a side effect of other things he was focusing on.

I'm not arguing that he DID it, I am arguing that it was something that he consciously focused on.

RG, I'm not asserting anything about his intent. He might have INTUITIVELY done it, or he might have COGNIZANTLY done it ... I'm not speculating on that.

I'm just saying that to get upside down that quickly, and then to extend upwards and over a bar that's that high, he DID IT by (a) a quick and powerful downswing ... then (b) a shortening of the radius of his legs as he begins his upswing ... and then (c) a very powerful muscle-up-and-over the bar. Without (a), then (b) is less effective ... and without (a) and (b), then (c) is less effective. It would be extremely inefficient to not do (a), and then try to do (b) and (c) ... he just wouldn't get his hips as high.

This is all quite obvious to me by watching that vid. To the untrained eye, I can see how it's not so obvious.

Try to simulate this rope vault with and without the downswing, and you'll see what I mean. You don't need to rope vault to confirm this. Just hang on a highbar and see how high you can raise your hips ... with and without a downswing.

Kirk

[Capt Caveman]

Altius suggested "completely different drill from the rope vaulting drills being defended by some on this site" and you see a tuck but say it is not a tuck since it is only there in one frame. I know how to work quicktime and your explanation is contradicting itself. As are the answers from different users. I guess this is another case of everyone seeing the same thing a little different.

You answers tell me there is only one Bubka video on the site. So I am watching the same video, frame by frame, and still wonder how you are coming to your conclusions. Trained eye or not there is a tuck stuck in the (b) phase (I think that is the point you are referring to with the b) yet you discount it as unimportant. Is this a flawed attempt at a specific drill that resulted in the tuck? If he was only working on (a) to (b) why did they go through the effort of setting up standards and a bungee to even do (c)?

To me, a less trained eye, this video is rope vaulting with a tuck and shoot and I cannot see how it can be explained any other way. If it were a swing drill there would be no need for standards and a bungee (even the pit is not needed if he did not let go). No matter how that drill is initiated (run jump grab, platform, etc) the goal seems to be to clear the bungee. Yes there are multiple parts to be worked on but the goal remains the same. Run (run), Plant (transferr momentum to the rope), Swing (rotate on the rope to a vertical position), Clear (extend off of the rope and go over the bungee).

[KirkB]

... you see a tuck but say it is not a tuck since it is only there in one frame. ...

Yes, I can understand your confusion better now, and yes ... (b) is a tuck. MY definition of a "tuck and shoot" is when a vaulter STARTS to tuck after they pass the chord, but then they HOLD ... or PAUSE in ... the tuck in the flat-back position. They do this while they wait for the pole (or in this case the rope) to roll forwards to vertical (or in this case for the rope to swing closer to the bar) ... and then they shoot. I'm sorry to confuse you about these 2 definitions of "tuck", and I accept your definition of action (b) being just as much a correct definition as mine.

... Trained eye or not there is a tuck stuck in the (b) phase (I think that is the point you are referring to with the b) yet you discount it as unimportant. Is this a flawed attempt at a specific drill that resulted in the tuck? If he was only working on (a) to (b) why did they go through the effort of setting up standards and a bungee to even do (c)?

I don't think (b) is unimportant ... I'm just stressing (a) more than (b). And I'm just saying that (c) is even less important.

Actually, (b) isn't THAT important, becuz it doesn't scale very well to a real PV. It's a matter of scale. If you're vaulting 10 feet, then you MUST tuck ... very much like the tuck you see in action (b). But if you're vaulting 20 feet (as Bubka did), then there's no need to tuck this way. You have loads more time to swing without tucking (much) at all. That's why I didn't emphasize (b) ... it doesn't simulate a real vault (for anyone jumping > 14 feet or so) very well.

... this video is rope vaulting with a tuck and shoot and I cannot see how it can be explained any other way.

If you said that this vid is rope vaulting with a "Bubka", then I would agree. By "Bubka" I mean his highbar drill of the same name. This is where semantics have confused all this ... and I'm probably more guilty of causing this confusion than you are. But when you specifically say "tuck and shoot" now, I take that as the type of action that you see in real vaults of the same name. A "tuck" during the upswing ... but then a PAUSE in the flat-back position ... while the vaulter waits for the pole to roll to vertical ... and then a "shoot" out of that "tuck" (also called "rockback") position.

... If it were a swing drill there would be no need for standards and a bungee (even the pit is not needed if he did not let go). No matter how that drill is initiated (run jump grab, platform, etc) the goal seems to be to clear the bungee. Yes there are multiple parts to be worked on but the goal remains the same. Run (run), Plant (transferr momentum to the rope), Swing (rotate on the rope to a vertical position), Clear (extend off of the rope and go over the bungee).

This is where I think RainbowGirl and I had a misunderstanding ... and you too. I'm not at all claiming that his intent was to make this a swing drill. I'm guessing ... just as you are ... that the INTENT is to clear the bar ... however he can.

Using any and all skills and experience that he could muster, Bubka did what he does best ... he rose to the challenge of trying to clear a bar set at a certain height. Whether intuitive or not, he did this very well ... wa-a-a-ay better than most mere mortals ... by having a quick and powerful downswing ... and then shortening the radius of his upswing. This is pure physics ... the quicker and stronger the downswing ... and the quicker the shortening of the radius ... the more MOMENTUM he's going to generate in the UPWARDS direction.

Even if he didn't INTENTIONALLY downswing and upswing this way ON THIS DAY, this is obviously not the first day that he's ever tried this drill ... and we know for sure that he's done a lot of stiff vaulting. So this is the culmination of all his other training ... including weight training and highbar training for the "Bubka" and "extension" part of the drill. After stiff vaulting and rope vaulting this way over multiple sessions (probably multiple YEARS), it should not be surprising that action (a) and action (b) eventually become intuitive.

I hope we're on the same page now. Caveman, I like the way you question everything. I hope I've satisfied your need to understand these drills in depth ... and I completely agree with your tag line. Hopefully, you can agree to MY tag line!

Kirk

[~jj~]

I have rope vaulted and taught rope vaulting for 25 years on a variety of set ups in a variety of locations all over the country. It is really fun, totally safe, and a great way to imitate some of the gymnastics in pole vaulting.
However, you must have a good padding system, and a good teaching methodology to keep it safe and productive.....
In all my years iof using this kind of method, the only injuries i know of are to peope on inadaquate padding sysems.

Jan Johnson
Atascadero, ca

[vquestpvc]

ABSOLUTELY - NAY! The actual motion of swinging on a rope to simulate vaulting is counter to motion desired. Swinging on a rope is like being on the end of a whip, however, the motion desired in pole vaulting is a pendulum motion where an individual swings opposite the motion on the end of a rope. However, using a rope can be invaluable to teaching the swing, inversion and turn similar to vaulting. One simply stands in primarily a stationary position (perhaps using one or 2 steps) with arms positioned on the rope similar to the position on the pole (bottom elbow inside of course). Then the obvious, the individual swings the take off leg through to inversion while also attempting to pull the body up along the rope. Difficult at first perhaps, but one learns the importance of the swing leg and talk about developing core strength all within a safer environment. Actually, and most certainly, there can be better spotting by a coach which instills a greater level of confident in the athlete until he or she feels more comfortable and capable of doing it themselves. Once this activity is better mastered, one can use high jump standards with a bungee adjacent to the rope whereby the individual swings up to inversion pulling through the rope to clear the bungee. After a few reps at the bungee, use a stiff bar. There's been real good success teaching junior high school vaulters using a this rope drill. It's especially helpful in the winter months in the Northeast when one is stuck inside. Of course individuals love swinging greatly on a rope and landing in water or a pit. But teaching proper technique within a safe environment is paramount. Pole vaulting seems to take a big hit every year prior to track season. Rules are constantly being imposed trying to make it safer. What really makes pole vaulting safe is proper instruction, good drills and a safe environment. I'm reminded of a young girl swinging off a rope into a river and landing short on the ground subsequently breaking her back. Pole vaulting doesn't need that! Save swinging on a rope for grandma's pond.
Ken in PA

[xxartanisxx]

Haha i wouldnt do the jump from a platform version as if a hand slipped your screwed. But a run and jump movement is great to swing up and work on technique. We do that in our schools gymnastics area with mats down so just make sure its safe.

[billy_pacheco7]

I say yay!

I take pride in being a technician, and having an open mind about the pole vault - relating to theories, physics calculations, and any other ideas that might float around.I feel that rope vaulting is an excellent way to teach a more unorthodox approach to the vault. It gives you the ability to have more technical repititions without fatigue, brings a fun approach to the vault, and teaches you the idea of having a strong swing.
Vaulting can be hard on the body, no matter if your taking a lot of repititions from a 4 left approach or a 8. It allows you to relax at practice, and relaxation is key to hitting the propper key technique stages in the vault (back swing, swing, driving the hips up, staying tight to the rope, turning, and pushing off). Yes, it does force you to use a double leg trail leg swing up...But maybe this old school "double leg" could be the new school approach. So it does have a pro by letting you think of different possibilities of the pole vault. As i always said - "there is not always ONE WAY to pole vaulting. There is one basic approach to the pole vault -yes, but there are also different theories and ideas in how to hit those basic phases of the vault.
This is what rope vault helps with - it allows to test different approaches to the vault.
Also, rope vault is fun. The pole vault can sometimes be stressful...actually, it mostly is stressful. But this allows the athlete to walk away from the stress on the runway, while still maintaning technique, and having fun while doing it. You need to balance your stress levels in practice with fun... without incorperating fun, athletes tend to get burnt out to fast, and therefore not reaching their fullest potential in the pole vault. So rope vault does help not only the physical aspect, but also the psychological aspect as well.
Lastly, the rope vault teaches you the timing of the swing. The swing is one of the most important parts of the vault, besides the approach and take-off position. It help with learning the back swing - which is another idea i incorperated in my vault that keeps me from reducing my velocity at the approach, and thus - gives me a stronger swing to the vertical position - which helps you grip just that much more high, lets you jump on that much more of a bigger pole, and makes it a hell of a lot more fun.
In conclusion, i could just go on and on about the rope vault and how beneficial it is for me, as well as other vaulters. I seen it work magic. It replicates exactly what you are doing wrong and right in the pole vault. The rope vault may have some cons, but it has a lot more pros if you ask me. Setting it up, buying the tools, and educating myslef in it was one of my best investments besides buying pits, runways, and poles.
So rope vault, bump some music at practice, and have fun!!!

-Billy Pacheco