10 things everyone should consider while lifting

[EIUvltr]

5. Pole vaulters are not Olympic lifters.
Your argument is that since there is no Prestretch in the Clean or Snatch and no stretch shortening cycle, there is no carryover to the pole vault, which is a movement chalked full of the S/S cycle. The following is an excerpt from the Journal of Strength and Conditioning research, published by the NSCA. The study compares Powerlifting to Olympic Style Training in the effect of increasing vertical leap (a movement dominated by the S/S cycle)

I never said there was no carryover. I actually said that Olympic lifting will make you more powerful. I was simply arguing that when you take into the cost/benefit analysis, olympic lifting to me is not worth the time compared to a well balanced shock training regimen. As far as I know, America is really the only country which is so obsessed with using olympic lifting to train jumpers. Every ex-soviet strength coach I've ever heard of doesn't believe OST is necessary in the training of jumpers. As well as well known American strength coaches such as Joe Defranco, Dave Tate, Louis Simmons, Buddy Morris, etc.

[EIUvltr]

...many of the olmpic lifters even being 350 lbs will have an 48 inch verticle.

Please show me evidence of this statement.

[JMP8928]

i'll bet a dollar hossein rezazedeh cant vert over 30

[kcvault]

"It is known that Nicu Vlad, a 100 and 108kg lifter had a bona fide 43" vertical jump.

Shane Hamman, at 5'9" and 375 lbs., could dunk a basketball. Being able to snatch 197.5 kilos definitely helped him."
(seems to be contraversy over this however still impressive jumping ability)

Here are the averages.

This is from 'Managing the Training of Weightlifters'

this is for USSR Masters of Sport. A chart based on weight classes showing the average verts for each weight class.

52kilo = 65cm
56kilo = 67cm
60 kilo = 63cm
67.5 kilo = 68cm
75kilo = 71cm
82.5kilo = 70cm
90kilo = 74cm
100kilo = 67cm
110kilo = 65cm
110+ kilo = 67cm

The Averages may seem low but I have a strength and conditiong book that shows college basketball players with averages of about the same that are showing for weight lifters.

Also america is very sussesful at all sports there obsession with olympic lifts is only a perceaved problem. It seems like if one study is done by Russians every one on this bored will cling to it as if it is the word of god regardless of what American studies say. The Russians are not the only ones that know how to pole vault, and there definately not the only ones that do studies on athletes.

---Kasey

[kcvault]

http://vimeo.com/3134179
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoCZne0g-e8

[EIUvltr]

So you named one guy who weighted about 240 who had a 43" vertical. I have yet to see you list "many" 350 lbs. lifters who had 48 inch verticals.

And again, I didn't say that olympic lifting wouldn't improve an athlete's performance. I just said that it isn't the best way to develop power. The olympic lifts are closer to the power lifts than they are to something like the depth jump in terms of the adaptations they elicit. If an athlete does not have to overcome a great external resistance, then the benefit of olympic lifting diminishes.

[kcvault]

I really don't think you understand the olympic lifts. You see benifits with low weights and with high weights with the olympic lifts. Also I did not say not to do plyos as will. I would say squats by themselves are pretty useless. However they are important because they allow you to power cling more and they prepare your body for things like depth jumps.

Also I gave you a list of averages of weight lifters that is basically the same of that of the averages of college basket ball players. When we think basket ball players we only think of the ones with a 60 inch vertical, but the averages are not that high.

I dont care about standing vertical I care about running vertical. When I was a sophmore in high school I had a 30 inch running verical. I started doing power clings and snatches because one of the coaches there was a olympic weight lifter. My running vertical went from 30 inches to 44 inches in 1 year. We had another guy 5'10 190lb power cling 330 lbs. He would jump over people to dunk a basket ball. (Of course like I said are school had someone who understands olmypic lifts and knew how to teach them.) Also when I trained with Jan Johnson he had us do cilngs and snatches, as well as 6x6 contact bounds. Not a lot just a little once or twice a week. He is one of the most susessful high school and college coaches I know. In my opinion for two reasons one he understands the vault and two because he knows how to train people.

The olympic lifts are hard to learn and I understand why you don't want to teach them to high school kids but I think teaching them the tecknique just for 10 or 15 minutes a day well help them in the long run.

--Kasey

[IAmTheWalrus]

I never said there was no carryover. I actually said that Olympic lifting will make you more powerful. I was simply arguing that when you take into the cost/benefit analysis, olympic lifting to me is not worth the time compared to a well balanced shock training regimen.

Also I did not say not to do plyos as will.

It seems to me that both of you agree that both plyos and olympic lifts can increase power and help one to pole vault higher. The disagreement seems to be in which is better. I imagine that some combination is going to be most ideal. As was already stated, if you become a master of the olympic lifts, you will see diminishing returns because you are moving the weight a much smaller distance. But I'm not saying they won't help you. I would imagine that utilizing both can help you, especially as the athlete adapts to one workout.

I think the important thing to note is that doing olympic lifts can make you more explosive, but if don't have the opportunity (many HS athletes), plyos are more than enough. I don't think EIUvaulter would say to never do olympic lifts, but I don't think I'd sacrifice a technique session for them. We aren't olympic lifters, we're pole vaulters, just like we aren't sprinters and we don't do block starts, we don't need to master the olympic lifts, we just need them to make us more explosive.

[Cooleo111]

A little off-topic, but I thought the guy at 4:39 was pretty impressive!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvGIpacGoXc&feature=rec-r2-2r-2

[altius]

"The Russians are not the only ones that know how to pole vault" - You are right - some Australians are pretty good too! And they do it by focussing on pole vaulting - not on weight training or improving their vertical jump.

[H.Gray]

This post (and the subsequent comments/discussions) are a big reason why I like to work with T&F athletes so much, especially Vaulters. Although there are some disagreements with some of the points of view posted, the very fact that this is being discussed is positive. I look forward to getting involved on this board.

Howard Gray
http://pursuitofperformance.blogspot.com/
http://www.sportscienceed.com/

[JMP8928]

dude,

we're pole vaulters. We operate on the premise of, what Ali G would call - "respekt". We all realize there is more than one way to skin this awkward cat.