10 things everyone should consider while lifting

[tsorenson]

Nice job by EIU in bringing up this important topic...great post. Weight lifting SHOULD be adjusted taking into consideration a person's BMI and body type. If you are scrawny, you had better be spending a lot more time in the weight room than if you are already a natural "meathead".

There are other ways to "lean up" while increasing strength besides just lifting weights...as one of my friends once said: "lifting weights is a great way to get better at lifting weights"
Try rock climbing...take a look at any climber's physique and you will notice a lot of lean muscle and very high strength-to-weight ratio. Here's a photo of Chris Sharma, one of the world's best climbers...I can guarantee you that he doesn't spend much (if any) time in the weight room!
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u145 ... Sharma.jpg

I have been a climber for over 10 years, and as someone who quickly gains a LOT of weight when lifting, for me climbing and bouldering have been a great substitute (or supplement) for weight training and building lean muscle mass. I have also seen climbing mentioned in workout routines by Petrov and Steve Rippon! Go to your local rock gym (most colleges have them now), rent some shoes and a chalkbag, and climb around for a few hours. Long routes are good for power endurance and short, steep routes are good for explosive power. My guess is that you will be sore in places you didn't even know you have muscles...and won't gain any weight as your strength increases. Gymnastics are very similar to climbing...you will see significant gains in strength without adding much size or weight to your muscles. You may also find that you strengthen supporting muscles around your shoulder blades and middle back which may help your chronic pain and help prevent other injuries. Plus, it's fun enough to not be a "chore"

Don't feel that 180 is "too big" for a vaulter...most elite vaulters are way heavier than that! Just don't do high-rep lifting, or even lifts that aren't useful for the vault (bicep curls come to mind).

Tom

[BethelPV]

Iamthewalrus,

I don't know where you got that the general consensus of this board is that 170-180 pounds is too heavy on this board. I bet if you took a poll of most of the elite or emerging elite on this board, they would weigh in that range or higher. Alot of your elite vaulters are big, powerful guys. Look at guys like Miles, Hollis, Niedermeyer, Grande, Hooker, Mack, and a few of the german guys. All i bet weigh over 180 pounds and are all very good jumpers. They are just very strong and very very explosive! Thats the key, explosiveness on the runway and off the ground, and you can only get that by being explosive in the way you train.

[KirkB]

... Gymnastics would be included in this training plan. ...

EIU, thanks for your clarifications.

Kirk

[KirkB]

... Kirk I know your training obsession deals with "gymnastic" work ...

Relax, Kyle. There's a HUGE difference between a balanced training schedule that INCLUDES gymnastics and a "gymnastics training obsession". Your hyperbole is misguided and misleading ... unless you think that the average HS vaulter should focus more on weight lifting than on PV-specific gymnastics drills.

Kirk

[rainbowgirl28]

unless you think that the average HS vaulter should focus more on weight lifting than on PV-specific gymnastics drills.

I think he is grounded in the real world where most high school kids do not have any sort of access to a high bar or rings or rope. And don't give me the "high bars are everywhere" speech. Most kids either can't (no access to transporation) or don't have the time/dedication to find a high bar.

[kcvault]

As far as "slowing down your CNS" goes, this is just unfounded and ridiculous

This is not unfounded. I agree that auxiliary lifts should be done at high reps. However the reason someone in the first 6 weeks of training starts to see quick results with out seeing hypertrophy of the muscles is the CNS gets faster even though the strength increase is not that great. 5 sets of 5 on things like power clings and snatches is still a volume of 25 and if you do full cleans and full snatches 5 is a lot of reps for a set. The CNS does slow down after 5 so why would you want to do the lift slow. Except maby at the very beginning of the season you might go more then 5 for the first one or two micro cycles. But never with more then 55-60% of you max. Other then the central nervous system remember you can train fast twitch muscles to act as slow twitch muscles but you can't train slow twitch muscles to act as fast twitch. You are right doing high reps on auxiliary lifts is not going to hurt you. However as soon as you are done with the base part of your year you should not do more then 5 reps with the lifts that are meant to be fast through the triple exstention position, or more then 8-10 contacts on plo's. (Also I would say things without a plyometric motion or triple exstention position can be done at higher reps but never at mid season or near someones peak)

---Kasey

[EIUvltr]

As far as "slowing down your CNS" goes, this is just unfounded and ridiculous

This is not unfounded. I agree that auxiliary lifts should be done at high reps. However the reason someone in the first 6 weeks of training starts to see quick results with out seeing hypertrophy of the muscles is the CNS gets faster even though the strength increase is not that great. 5 sets of 5 on things like power clings and snatches is still a volume of 25 and if you do full cleans and full snatches 5 is a lot of reps for a set. The CNS does slow down after 5 so why would you want to do the lift slow. Except maby at the very beginning of the season you might go more then 5 for the first one or two micro cycles. But never with more then 55-60% of you max. Other then the central nervous system remember you can train fast twitch muscles to act as slow twitch muscles but you can't train slow twitch muscles to act as fast twitch. You are right doing high reps on auxiliary lifts is not going to hurt you. However as soon as you are done with the base part of your year you should not do more then 5 reps with the lifts that are meant to be fast through the triple exstention position, or more then 8-10 contacts on plo's. (Also I would say things without a plyometric motion or triple exstention position can be done at higher reps but never at mid season or near someones peak)

---Kasey

By the CNS getting faster, I assume you are referring to Motor unit recruitment frequencies. Within the first 6 weeks, there are numerous neuromuscular adaptations that occur in addition to increased MU recruitment frequencies. However considering that you're a 5.40m vaulter, I think you may have forgotten what it is like to be weak and uncoordinated. Also you are probably more athletic than 99% of the population. I'm coaching high school right now and half of our athletes can't even stand with good posture, much less run correctly. They all initiate hip extension from their lower back as if their hamstrings don't exist. If a kid can't even stand correctly, throwing a bar on his back with his 5RM is just going to result in more problems/strength disparities/immobilities/injuries. Also doing your "big lifts" with more than 5 reps can be useful in conditioning movement patterns and strengthening the "core" muscles. A lot of kids have legs that can lift more than their upper bodies can support. So halfway through their set their form starts to deteriorate even though their legs haven't come close to failure. So thats why saying something like "you should never do more with your legs then 5 reps so at your highest volume 5 sets of 5, and with plyos never more then 8-10" is bad and dangerous advice.

The CNS does slow down after 5 so why would you want to do the lift slow.

Also I don't know where this number "5" came from, but assuming you are talking about something like cleans, snatches or high pulls, doing more reps would mean you are doing less weight. And with less weight the movement would actually be faster. Also, ironically, the better your form gets at doing olympic lifts, the less amplitude of movement there is because you are getting better at putting your body under the bar to catch it. This means that the bar doesn't accelerate as fast off the floor since you are able to do more weight, and the lift actually starts to resemble a "slow lift" such as a deadlift or squat. This is one of the other reasons I don't think olympic lifting is a terrific training means for developing power.

However as soon as you are done with the base part of your year you should not do more then 5 reps with the lifts that are meant to be fast through the triple exstention position, or more then 8-10 contacts on plo's.

You didn't say this the first time, you just said you should never do more than 5 reps when you lift. Try and think like a 14 year old kid on this forum who sees a 17'9" jumper saying something like that. He is going to misapply the hell out of it.

[golfdane]

don't have the time/dedication to find a high bar.

I think you can add imagination to that. With a bit of imagination, are you able to identify or create something usefull. Look at your average playground.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS7h1gmCLNU

[kcvault]

Also I don't know where this number "5" came from, but assuming you are talking about something like cleans, snatches or high pulls, doing more reps would mean you are doing less weight. And with less weight the movement would actually be faster. Also, ironically, the better your form gets at doing olympic lifts, the less amplitude of movement there is because you are getting better at putting your body under the bar to catch it. This means that the bar doesn't accelerate as fast off the floor since you are able to do more weight, and the lift actually starts to resemble a "slow lift" such as a deadlift or squat. This is one of the other reasons I don't think olympic lifting is a terrific training means for developing power.

I got 5 from the strenth and conditiong teacher and the physiology of exersize teacher at stanislaus. When doing power cleans though your triple exstention may not happen as fast when the weight goes up you have to drop under the weight very quickly (much faster then with lighter weight) which is a very effective plyometric movment when done properly. However I should have mentioned in the previous post I belive by mid season you should get up to about 97% of your max rep, however the last month in a half of the season you should drop down to 45% of your max rep. Also instead of doing full cleans and snatches at that point of the season you should do hang cleans and snatches.

Sorry that some of my posts are not better exsplained but I don't have internet right know and don't usually have much time to right.

---Kasey

[kcvault]

Also the better someone gets at olypic lifts the faster they move through the triple exstention. The goal is to pull the bar as high and as fast as you can and then drop under it as quickly as you can. The biggest problem with olympic lifts is coching. Alot of coaches dont understand the olympic lifts and try to teach people how to do them incorrectly. When teaching a lift like power clings you want to first teach a clean pull. This allows them to learn to get there back straight and pull as high and fast as they can with straight arms. With light weight you then teach them to allow there elbows to come up then to flip there wrist and push there elbows up high putting them on there heels instead of there toes. Then from the hang cling position you teach them to do this quickly. After that from the same position right after they finish the triple exstention you teach them to drop under the bar as quick as possible as if there pusing there feet through the floor. The last step is to have them put it all together starting with the bar on the floor. Aslo how fast you move through the olypic lifts is the reason many of the olmpic lifters even being 350 lbs will have an 48 inch verticle.

I would agree that high school kids should not do the olypic lifts unless someone at the school who is very proficient at them can teach them how, and should just learn the tecknique as a freshmen or sohmore in high school.

--kasey

[JMP8928]

5. Pole vaulters are not Olympic lifters.

This is going to be the point I get the most heat about. But its true. And every top strength coach/track coach I've ever heard of shares this view. Joe Defranco, Charlie Francis, Tudor bompa, Yuri Verkhoshansky, etc. They are all astounded by the United States' obsession with olympic lifting. Are olympic lifters powerful? Yes. Will olympic lifting make you more powerful? Yes. Is it the best way to increase power? No. Olympic lifts have two major drawbacks.

(1) They are hard. Unless you already have great form, a pole vaulter's time could be spent in a much more productive manner than learning another sport.
(2) They only work against inertia. There is no prestretch in the clean or snatch. They both start as a powerful concentric contraction. However in running and jumping, every step except the initial one is preceded by a prestretch of the relevant muscles which enables the body to utilize the myotatic stretch reflex. Performing exercises that utilize this are much more "specific" (http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/glos ... ty_def.htm) than olympic lifts and easier to do!


Your argument is that since there is no Prestretch in the Clean or Snatch and no stretch shortening cycle, there is no carryover to the pole vault, which is a movement chalked full of the S/S cycle. The following is an excerpt from the Journal of Strength and Conditioning research, published by the NSCA. The study compares Powerlifting to Olympic Style Training in the effect of increasing vertical leap (a movement dominated by the S/S cycle)



As demonstrated in Figure 1, both OT and PT improved vertical jump performance (MOT = 2.4 ± 4.7 cm; MPT = 1.1 ± 3.1 cm). The control group experienced a decrease in vertical jump (MControl Group = -1.7 ± 2.9 cm), which is likely a detraining phenomenon that occurred as a result of not engaging in resistance training for a 12-week period. The change in vertical jump performance represented a 4.5% increase for OT, a 2.3% increase for PT, and a 2.8% decrease for control (Table 3). Single-factor ANOVA indicated no significant mean difference in vertical jump improvement among the OT, PT, and control groups (p ≥ 0.05). However, large effect sizes (OT vs. control, d = 1.06; PT vs. control, d = 0.94) demonstrate a meaningful difference in the gains made by both training groups compared with the control group. A low to moderate effect size between OT and PT (d = 0.34) represents a less meaningful difference between these training groups, but it is noteworthy that the mean improvement of the Olympic group was 56% greater than that of the power lift group.

Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research:
September 2008 - Volume 22 - Issue 5 - pp 1522-1527

SO:

OST did increase the athletes ability to leap vertically, a movement dominated by the stretch shortening cycle. So, i think it is worth re-examining your claim that OST does not carryover to PV for the reason that OST is pure concentric training.

Furthermore, you did not mention the clean and jerk. While yes, the Clean is a purely concentric movement, the C&J is a double hip extension movement, and therefore must go through the stretch shortening cycle. Also, the pole vault is a double hip extension event. Triple extension on take off, and then hip flexion and extension when you make your move up the pole, just as in the C&J.


I could go on for longer. If anyone would like to discuss this further, please feel free to PM me. I love a good S&C discussion.

in conclusion,

to me, OST is worth its time.

[JMP8928]

OH YEAH.

and the olympic lift the NSCA tested was the power clean. a purely concentric movement.