6P's new PR of 15' from 6 Lefts (on a 14' pole)

[joebro391]

Competed at the 2009 Holiday Classic in the New Balance Center (The Armory), in NYC. Good day for me, as i went into the meet, with the goal to PR from a short run (and finally an official 2-foot push-off). Though...still A LOT to fix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0ywHqvJyZg

JUMP 1 (standards at 80cm): never got the plant up all the way, and i took off at 9'6 (I WANTED TO BE AT 11'4). My coach told me i was fine and just need to get the plant up earlier (which i of course did), but...i suppose we disagree on the importance of a free take off. well, being that far under + the late plant, made the rest of the jump pretty ugly (swing stunk, got swepped under the pole and pretty much muscled through the jump) CRAP

JUMP 2(standards at 80cm): Step still at 9'6, but somehow was actually able to swing decently. I briefly got stuck in the dreaded 'V', but was able to recover (probably cause of how soft the pole was). STILL CRAP

JUMP 3 (standards at 65cm): Step moved out a bit to around 10'3, and i finally got the plant up early, so i was actually able to swing and cover the pole. not too bad of a jump

JUMP 4 (standards at 75cm): step went back to 9'6, AND THAT'S WHY I GOT STUCK IN THE 'V'...(swing stunk, everything else stunk). CRAP AGAIN

JUMP 5 (standards at 80cm): interesting...step was at 9'9 again, causing me to swing to the left (causing be to shoot to the left), but i swung nonetheless). Now, i see NO PASSIVE PHASES, and that is the only reason why i made this jump. but you probably know me, nothing justifies taking off, two feet under. Does anyone notice a collapsing bottom-arm?? looks "weaker" than in all the other jumps. perhaps just an anomaly?? any thoughts? :X

JUMP 6 (standards at 80cm): what do you know, step around 10'9. i got a pretty good swing (though i feel i should come back EVEN FURTHER, before extending my left leg [something i'll need to work in with swing-to-bubka's)]. But then I kinda got stuck, which i think was just some hesitation on my part (perhaps i didn't think i had gotten through for some reason)

JUMP 7 (standards at 80cm): FINALLY, step around 11'. This led to a pretty good swing, right to my hands (still probably shoulda waited a split second longer to extend my right leg), but not passive phases in the vault. I blew through. BEST JUMP OF THE NIGHT

JUMP 8: went to a 14' 170 (16.0flex), got hesitant, ran through...

So yea, that was my holiday classic...all i have to say, is that i really need to discuss with my coach (this was not my college coach, this was my old private coach that I've been working with, during semester break) about his ideas of taking off. From what I've seen, he's a big fan of Brad Walker and Pat Licari. And I love Licari and his ideas about non-passive motion, but i don't like his belief that chest drive correlates with being under at take-off...so yea. Any feedback is welcome. thanks guys. -6P

[tsorenson]

Nice job!
You seem to have a good understanding of what you need to do...get your step out, and swing with confidence from there (on your big pole). Your last few vaults when your step was closer to "on" you blew through the pole, as you mentioned. It takes a lot of practice on short runs to get used to the feeling of vaulting with a free takeoff, especially for those of us who have learned to vault "under" for many years. The problem is that if you usually take off under, the pole you are normally using will be crushed if you take off "free", and the vault feels completely different than when you get ripped off the ground into a short swing. You've got to get that step consistent!
You are wise to stick with the short runs for now until you can consistently take off "on" with an aggressive swing, then pull out your bigger poles and longer runs. Any time you start to take off under, think about quickening your cadence at the takeoff and making sure you let the pole drop naturally and weightlessly, keeping your left hand high, as this is the key to the free takeoff. Moving your step back a little at a time can be good, but beware of overstriding (it doesn't look like you are overstriding at this point). Confidence and consistancy are key...looks like you can jump a lot higher from 6 lefts before moving back.
Don't forget to focus on free takeoffs on all your short drills to get used to the "feel." Try going back to your 3-step long swing drills on a soft pole, making sure you take off "free" and swing long through the chord and beyond.
Good luck, looks like you're having a great start!
Tom

[joebro391]

Thanks Tom. Yea, right now, my the biggest thing in my mind, as mentioned in the "optimal grip" thread in the training forum, will be to get my 3-left straight-pole grip UP as high as it can go. That (being able to move the pole to vertical), will force me to really leap at take-off, freely, and in turn do a lot more things properly. The short stuff really does help. My college coach wants me to go back to a 7, but I might try to persuade him to stay at a 6 for a bit longer...we'll see haha. -6P

[bel142]

Morning,
Congratulations on a new pr, that is always fun, and doing it at a place like the armory is really special.

You have some very positive things about your vault and somethings that are a bit of a problem.

I really enjoy your run, it looks powerful it looks quick... However your sprinting technique is a little different that what i like to see, I am seeing a stretched out stride, sinking you a tick lower that what I would like, if you can tighten it it up with a title bit more knee lift and a quicker foot drop and heal strike that will probably fix that, this will also lead to a little bit more of a forward lean, and with that you are going to see a little bit more powerful drive at take off.

I am not a fan of your pole drop and i think this is where you are setting up a bunch of problems at take off. You have good control over the pole through the course of your run, this is good thing however you are holding the pole at 45 degrees 3 or 4 steps before you actually start your drop. Over the course of your run you have a consistent drop, but the problem with holding the pole where you are is that your body naturally counters that with a tick of a backward lean. Again, you have good control of the pole, but that control is not allowing you to get the full mechanical advantage of a drop. This is influencing your step and body position at take off. Now because of where you are holding the pole at about 2L out you achieve a nice parallel pole position, but because of where the pole started unfortunately you are achieving this position because of a non-positive factor with where the pole started.

If you were able to run with the pole up for a longer time and get rid of this 45 degree hold, you are going see a better body position at take off however, your 2L out pole position may suffer for a while until you can really learn the timing.

Your hips and step at take off are getting pushed way under. If you can learn to perceptually (spelling?) to actually drop the pole from 6 steps out (3L), with a free drop so the pole is weightless at 2L outs the change in your center of mass will pull your body forward this will help with energy transfer into the pole. This will allow you to hit the pole with your chest rather than your pelvis. With a better drop your step and body position will change.

I say this is a perceptual thing because right now your body is used to seeing the box and pole relative to each other, this is a neurological and perceptual thing that need to change in order to achieve an on, out, or even free step. You need to learn to see the box and pole drop really far away from each other to achieve this jump hit we all hear about. Simply, moving a step back 2 feet on the run doesn't work, you need to learn to feel and react to the change in body position. Its perception, its neurological, and training it takes time.

Those are some things that I see with your vault. Again congratulations with the PR.
cheers,
bel

[joebro391]

bel142: Thanks for the advice. yea, I've been noticing that too, about my pole-drop. When i do pole-runs, I strive for and achieve a free pole-drop, but when it comes time for the actual vault, I hold it and manually lower it into the box. I DO WANT TO FIX THIS. But how do you suggest I time it? I suppose that I'm always afraid that I'm going to lower it to early, it'll land on the runway, and skim over the box...just a fear I have. Any tips? Thanks again! -6P

PS: As I stated, it was not my intent to take off, under. After my first jump, which felt VERY under, I asked my coach about my step and he replied "your step is fine, just get the plant up earlier", after my next jump, I asked him again, he replied "fine". So this is something me and him have to work out, because I HATE taking off, under. In fact, I can't do it in practice. I can only do it in meets (I think a lot of vaulters can take off and jump awkwardly in meets, cause of the "all or nothing" mentality.

[rainbowgirl28]

I suppose that I'm always afraid that I'm going to lower it to early, it'll land on the runway, and skim over the box...just a fear I have. Any tips? Thanks again! -6P

That's not a rational fear. When Jenn S. was first learning to vault, she dropped it way early and it did this. Just slid right into the box.

[KirkB]

... I'm always afraid that I'm going to lower it to early, it'll land on the runway, and skim over the box...just a fear I have.

I don't like the idea of sliding the pole to the backstop. I prefer dropping it just in time for it to hit the backstop ... maybe only a couple inches before it (not a foot or two). In my experience, it will hardly EVER be too late - resulting in missing the box. I might have done that ONCE in my entire career. Just aim for the backstop, drop it in time to do that, and it'll hit there. (Note that this is INTERMEDIATE advice. I think anyone under 4.00 or so should do more of a SLIDE of the pole into the box.)

If you're dropping it WEIGHTLESSLY, then it's actually going to hit there quite naturally ... without sliding. I think the important thing about a weightless pole drop is that you need to time it so that it IS weightless. Never BEGIN to drop it "weightlessly" and then try to slow it down from falling into the box. You can learn this timing from a short run, so don't NOT worry about dropping it weightlessly from your short run, just becuz your grip is lower. Get into the habit of ALWAYS dropping it weightlessly.

... I asked my coach about my step and he replied "your step is fine, just get the plant up earlier", after my next jump, I asked him again, he replied "fine". So this is something me and him have to work out, because I HATE taking off, under. ...

Consider the possibility that your coach just didn't want you to focus on your steps at that particular time. I'm not saying I agree with him ... I'm just saying that he might have been purposely avoiding that issue in order for you to focus on something else. I'm just saying it's a possibility.

Kirk

[vault3rb0y]

ON FIXING YOUR POLE DROP:

If you share(d) the same fears i do, it is uncomfortable to give yourself a free pole drop because you feel like you lose control of the pole. If you can do the pole runs right with a free pole drop, but cannot in the actual vault, it shows that the problem is best fixed WHILE vaulting.

I would suggest a short run, preferably 10 steps so that you have enough time to feel the pole up for 4 steps. Make yourself keep the pole up until 6 steps out, and think about moving your hands and feet to catch up with the speed of the pole. If you cant get comfortable with this right away, thats OK, but your focus needs to be on a continuous and free pole drop.

[Bubba PV]

You need to change your PR on your profile. CONGRATS!! Bubba

[joebro391]

Kirk: the predicament is somewhat complicated. he prefers brad walker's method of "take-off under and achieve chest-drive", among other things. there's a few other things involved which i do not feel it necessary to mention. {sigh}...i'll work it out.

ON FIXING YOUR POLE DROP:

If you share(d) the same fears i do, it is uncomfortable to give yourself a free pole drop because you feel like you lose control of the pole. If you can do the pole runs right with a free pole drop, but cannot in the actual vault, it shows that the problem is best fixed WHILE vaulting.

I would suggest a short run, preferably 10 steps so that you have enough time to feel the pole up for 4 steps. Make yourself keep the pole up until 6 steps out, and think about moving your hands and feet to catch up with the speed of the pole. If you cant get comfortable with this right away, thats OK, but your focus needs to be on a continuous and free pole drop.

thanks for the advice. I did 50 poles runs today at practice, focusing on free pole drop and really leaping up at take-off

You need to change your PR on your profile. CONGRATS!! Bubba

haha, thanks for the reminder

-6P

[KirkB]

... the predicament is somewhat complicated. he prefers brad walker's method of "take-off under and achieve chest-drive", among other things. ...

OK. That's unfortunate tho, cuz I don't think Walker's purposely under ... I think Licari was an advocate of the free takeoff when Brad was at UW. Don't know about Brad's subsequent target technique or that of his subsequent coaches. I hope he's striving for a free takeoff, else he's going to lose some energy before takeoff.

I don't quite understand the "achieve chest-drive" remark ... I don't see how that's tied to the takeoff. What is YOUR coach trying to get you to do with the chest (with the "under" takeoff)? PM me if this is too much for public consumption.

Kirk

[joebro391]

I don't quite understand the "achieve chest-drive" remark ... I don't see how that's tied to the takeoff. What is YOUR coach trying to get you to do with the chest (with the "under" takeoff)? PM me if this is too much for public consumption.

I'm gonna PM you as soon as I get done with this post. here, i'll attempt to explain your query about chest-drive and being under. i'm trying to to remember who else felt this way (pretty sure that I read it here, on PVP), but basically, the idea is that, if you lead with your chest and take off under, you'll have a position, similar to walker's at take-off (kinda like my position in my earlier jumps from sunday). Chest is out, arms and legs are back. Supposedly this makes the body a big rubber band (like an extreme version of what launder refers to as "pre stretch", which i DO attempt to obtain...but from a FREE TAKE-OFF). So yea, my coach is a big advocate of this, at least with me he his. He feels that I don't "stay down long enough" on poles. Now, I personally believe that there IS a "drive-phase" in the vault, but it's not an intentional thing, it's more of "the phase in which the hands/top of the pole, move forward into the pit", the's just MY BELIEF. But, IT CAN be done, non-passively, with a free take-off, and that's where I and this particular coach differ in our beliefs. So yea... -6P