I am getting inverted completely but cannot seem to be able to get into a handstand and have descent push off the top.
I focus on "harvesting" the poles energy into my top hand when inverted and sliding my hand up my thigh (toward my head) but i cant seem to get the transition to full handstand down.
I feel that it is very much something to do with timing but I was wondering if there are a couple of general mistakes people make in that phase of the vault or if there is something that I can keep in mind to help me.
I have read a lot on PVP and realize that everything comes naturally if the previous step was correct.....yet i have seen many technically not so great jumps where people manage to get full push off.
P.S I am capable of jumping 13'-13'6" on a 13' pole. ( just a sense of where I'm at )
Any help would be appreciated.
Push Off Help
- KirkB
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Re: Push Off Help
The terms "pushoff" and "handstand" may be misleading you ... if you assume that you "get inverted completely" and THEN you "get into a handstand" and get "decent push off the top". The reason these terms are misleading is becuz they might imply that you "get inverted" and THEN you "pushoff". That's not really how you do it.
To use Bubka as an extreme example, he has barely any "pushoff" once he inverts, yet his vertical is probably amongst the best of the best. If he cleared 6.15 with a 5.15 grip (not sure of his exact grip, but it was around there), then he had a 1.00m pushoff PLUS the 8" (20 cm) in the box ... for a pushoff of 1.20 (about 47"). How did he do this with no visible PUSHOFF? Easy! He did it all in the bottom half of his vault!
The same goes for someone like you ... in the 4.00 PR range.
If you rely on actually "pushing off" AFTER you invert, then you won't improve much. But if you improve your technique in the bottom half of your vault ... the takeoff, elastic stretch, downswing, and whip ... then you're going to generate the kind of power that Bubka generates in the bottom half of his vault. This will improve your pushoff by at least a couple feet ... and you'll be FLYING past your inverted position on the pole so fast ... seriously ... that you won't have time to actually "push off" the pole!
You may notice in my tagline that I don't mention "pushoff". That's becuz it's a trivial part of your overall technique. You "extend" and then you "fly" ... just like Bubka!
I'm not saying that trying to "pushoff" after you "extend" is a bad idea. It's not ... and in the 4.00 range, you can gain a few inches by pushing off. But it's not anything that you should focus on at the expense of not focussing on the bottom half of your vault. THAT'S where you gain FEET ... instead of INCHES!
Kirk
To use Bubka as an extreme example, he has barely any "pushoff" once he inverts, yet his vertical is probably amongst the best of the best. If he cleared 6.15 with a 5.15 grip (not sure of his exact grip, but it was around there), then he had a 1.00m pushoff PLUS the 8" (20 cm) in the box ... for a pushoff of 1.20 (about 47"). How did he do this with no visible PUSHOFF? Easy! He did it all in the bottom half of his vault!
The same goes for someone like you ... in the 4.00 PR range.
If you rely on actually "pushing off" AFTER you invert, then you won't improve much. But if you improve your technique in the bottom half of your vault ... the takeoff, elastic stretch, downswing, and whip ... then you're going to generate the kind of power that Bubka generates in the bottom half of his vault. This will improve your pushoff by at least a couple feet ... and you'll be FLYING past your inverted position on the pole so fast ... seriously ... that you won't have time to actually "push off" the pole!
You may notice in my tagline that I don't mention "pushoff". That's becuz it's a trivial part of your overall technique. You "extend" and then you "fly" ... just like Bubka!
I'm not saying that trying to "pushoff" after you "extend" is a bad idea. It's not ... and in the 4.00 range, you can gain a few inches by pushing off. But it's not anything that you should focus on at the expense of not focussing on the bottom half of your vault. THAT'S where you gain FEET ... instead of INCHES!
Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!
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Re: Push Off Help
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w0i6Jlblsw
look at 3:04
after that position the vault should be near effortless and the handstand is only a direct result of the energy put into the pole and not the vaulter attempting to handstand?
is that correct
and is pole flex number a direct correlation between "push off" height
look at 3:04
after that position the vault should be near effortless and the handstand is only a direct result of the energy put into the pole and not the vaulter attempting to handstand?
is that correct
and is pole flex number a direct correlation between "push off" height
- KirkB
- PV Rock Star
- Posts: 3550
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
- Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
- Lifetime Best: 5.34
- Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: Push Off Help
Nice PV mix! I liked the vault into the surf! Now that's SAND vaulting!
3:04 shows a nice slo-mo of a vaulter - is that Lobinger?
Think of it as a 3-stage process ... maybe even a 3-stage rocket booster if you're into aeronautics. I think that's the same analogy that Altius uses in BTB2.
I described the first stage in my previous post. This is the bottom half of your vault ... where you get MOST of the "boost" to set up your pushoff.
The second stage is your INVERT. While inverting, you're rotating your body, pointing your body skywards, as well as extending your body into an upside-down position. If you time this with the uncoiling of the pole, you can add additional energy ... an additional boost ... to your pushoff.
The third stage is the actual pushoff. The point I was making in my previous post was that your body needs to already be SUBSTANTIALLY shooting skywards from stages 1-2 ... and PULLING UP with the top arm ... before you literally PUSH DOWN with it. If you're pointing in the right direction, you can add a few inches to your CoM by pushing down. If you've flagged out, then pushing down is only going to rotate your body ... likely knocking the bar off ... and will not provide any additional lift.
In the vid, the vaulter executes all 3 stages quite elegantly ... including a nice little "flick of the wrist" as he's leaving the pole. He gets MOST of his upwards momentum from stage 1, then some more from stage 2, and then a LITTLE bit more from stage 3.
At 3:04, he's exactly in the "inverted I" position ... body straight, close to the pole, upside down, top arm not yet pulling. This is a GREAT position to be in ... to shoot off the top of the pole!
No. The vaulter should be attempting to "stay close to the pole" ... and he should strive to CONTINUE his upwards momentum by first PULLING with the top arm ... and then PUSHING with it. The PULLING part of this motion is like a "clean and jerk" weight lift ... and also feels almost exactly like a "hip-circle-cast-off-shoot-to-a-handstand" (search PVP for my posts about those drills ... and DO THEM! That's where you'll get the feel for the right body motions during the extension - not on the pole).
As you probably realize by now, that final 3rd stage boost with the top arm isn't much effort compared to the effort expended in the first 2 stages. That's not to say that a 6.00 vaulter like Lobinger shouldn't do it ... he does it nicely ... I'm just saying that it's not the right focus when you're in the 4.00 range. And of course you should "pull and then push". It's the natural thing to do ... and it will give you a boost of a few inches ... provided you're pointing straight up. I'm not saying you shouldn't pull/push at this point ... I'm only saying that your training emphasis should be on stage 1 ... and when that's going well ... then stage 2. Stage 3 isn't going to buy you that much more height compared to stages 1-2.
No, I wouldn't say that. You will find in general that vaulters with the greatest pushoffs use poles with very strong flexes, but there's a lot more to include in the formula than just pushoff and flex number. For example, run speed, takeoff speed, technical efficiency, amount of additional energy added in the Whip, and amount of additional energy added in the extension. Also, don't forget that the vaulter's body weight correlates to flex as well ... so a lighter vaulter can get more of a pushoff on a certain flex pole than a heavier vaulter on that same pole.
Kirk
3:04 shows a nice slo-mo of a vaulter - is that Lobinger?
Think of it as a 3-stage process ... maybe even a 3-stage rocket booster if you're into aeronautics. I think that's the same analogy that Altius uses in BTB2.
I described the first stage in my previous post. This is the bottom half of your vault ... where you get MOST of the "boost" to set up your pushoff.
The second stage is your INVERT. While inverting, you're rotating your body, pointing your body skywards, as well as extending your body into an upside-down position. If you time this with the uncoiling of the pole, you can add additional energy ... an additional boost ... to your pushoff.
The third stage is the actual pushoff. The point I was making in my previous post was that your body needs to already be SUBSTANTIALLY shooting skywards from stages 1-2 ... and PULLING UP with the top arm ... before you literally PUSH DOWN with it. If you're pointing in the right direction, you can add a few inches to your CoM by pushing down. If you've flagged out, then pushing down is only going to rotate your body ... likely knocking the bar off ... and will not provide any additional lift.
In the vid, the vaulter executes all 3 stages quite elegantly ... including a nice little "flick of the wrist" as he's leaving the pole. He gets MOST of his upwards momentum from stage 1, then some more from stage 2, and then a LITTLE bit more from stage 3.
At 3:04, he's exactly in the "inverted I" position ... body straight, close to the pole, upside down, top arm not yet pulling. This is a GREAT position to be in ... to shoot off the top of the pole!
... after that position the vault should be near effortless and the handstand is only a direct result of the energy put into the pole and not the vaulter attempting to handstand?
No. The vaulter should be attempting to "stay close to the pole" ... and he should strive to CONTINUE his upwards momentum by first PULLING with the top arm ... and then PUSHING with it. The PULLING part of this motion is like a "clean and jerk" weight lift ... and also feels almost exactly like a "hip-circle-cast-off-shoot-to-a-handstand" (search PVP for my posts about those drills ... and DO THEM! That's where you'll get the feel for the right body motions during the extension - not on the pole).
As you probably realize by now, that final 3rd stage boost with the top arm isn't much effort compared to the effort expended in the first 2 stages. That's not to say that a 6.00 vaulter like Lobinger shouldn't do it ... he does it nicely ... I'm just saying that it's not the right focus when you're in the 4.00 range. And of course you should "pull and then push". It's the natural thing to do ... and it will give you a boost of a few inches ... provided you're pointing straight up. I'm not saying you shouldn't pull/push at this point ... I'm only saying that your training emphasis should be on stage 1 ... and when that's going well ... then stage 2. Stage 3 isn't going to buy you that much more height compared to stages 1-2.
is pole flex number a direct correlation between "push off" height?
No, I wouldn't say that. You will find in general that vaulters with the greatest pushoffs use poles with very strong flexes, but there's a lot more to include in the formula than just pushoff and flex number. For example, run speed, takeoff speed, technical efficiency, amount of additional energy added in the Whip, and amount of additional energy added in the extension. Also, don't forget that the vaulter's body weight correlates to flex as well ... so a lighter vaulter can get more of a pushoff on a certain flex pole than a heavier vaulter on that same pole.
Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!
- vault3rb0y
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Re: Push Off Help
sduvinage wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w0i6Jlblsw
look at 3:04
after that position the vault should be near effortless and the handstand is only a direct result of the energy put into the pole and not the vaulter attempting to handstand?
is that correct
and is pole flex number a direct correlation between "push off" height
The push off comes from BOTH the energy you put into the pole AND continuing to pull as hard as you can once you are inverted!
Just sitting on the pole after adding energy will limit how high your push off is. BUT combine this energy with the same force that old stiff pole vaulters used to achieve push offs, by carrying your swing velocity into the pull of inversion, and you have a 3'-4' push off.
The greater the challenge, the more glorious the triumph
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