Optimal Grip

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sduvinage
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Optimal Grip

Unread postby sduvinage » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:39 am

Is there a direct conversion of stiff pole grip height to optimal grip height on a bending pole.
For example lets say someone can rotate a pole just past vertical with good take off technique holding at a height of 13 feet from a given # of steps.......I believe if the number of steps is a constant, it does not have to be factored.:yes:

So a stiff pole grip height of 13 feet at a given # of steps will yeild approximately how much higher?
Is this Increase constant?
Say 13 stiff= 15 bend?
14 stiff = 16 bend?
ps. those #'s are made up

I realize pole stiffness will be a factor in this but I am just looking for a general rule.


Please feel free too fix anything i got incorrect...
Thanks

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Re: Optimal Grip

Unread postby Lax PV » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:38 am

sduvinage wrote:Is there a direct conversion of stiff pole grip height to optimal grip height on a bending pole.
For example lets say someone can rotate a pole just past vertical with good take off technique holding at a height of 13 feet from a given # of steps.......I believe if the number of steps is a constant, it does not have to be factored.:yes:

So a stiff pole grip height of 13 feet at a given # of steps will yeild approximately how much higher?
Is this Increase constant?
Say 13 stiff= 15 bend?
14 stiff = 16 bend?
ps. those #'s are made up

I realize pole stiffness will be a factor in this but I am just looking for a general rule.


Please feel free too fix anything i got incorrect...
Thanks


Everyone is going to be different, and while keeping the same number of steps might help compare for a given approach, I don't know that the ratio from straight pole grip to bent pole grip would be the same for different runways. However, I can't remember the last time I straight pole jumped from a runway longer than 3 lefts... just looks to be a bit too much impulse on the shoulder joint at take off. A "bent pole" take off allows some of the initial impulse to lessen as energy goes into the pole and not your shoulder.

For what its worth, I can effectively hold about 11'3" to 11'5" with a straight pole, and about 13'0" 13'3" with a bending pole...I think... which would be an increase in grip of about 15% or so.

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Re: Optimal Grip

Unread postby tsorenson » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:37 pm

I think the correlation is that your grip height from 3 lefts on a stiff pole should translate to your take-off point on your competition pole, which would allow you to determine your grip height as well.
For example, if you can grip 13' on a stiff pole from 3 lefts and stay behind the pole with good technique, while safely getting into the pit, you should be able to take off from 13' on your long run, which would give you the ability to jump on 15' 6 or 16' poles with an appropriately high grip (I am guessing here on what the grip would be for a 13' takeoff point, but it's probably close). I have not tried this myself, but have seen it discussed in various other threads as a way that some elite vaulters use to determine their optimal grip on their competition pole. Perhaps someone with better understanding can elaborate on why this should work...my guess is that the short run stiff pole drill measures your takeoff efficiency which should directly translate to your long run if you know how to take off properly.

Tom

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Re: Optimal Grip

Unread postby Lax PV » Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:26 pm

tsorenson wrote:I think the correlation is that your grip height from 3 lefts on a stiff pole should translate to your take-off point on your competition pole, which would allow you to determine your grip height as well.
For example, if you can grip 13' on a stiff pole from 3 lefts and stay behind the pole with good technique, while safely getting into the pit, you should be able to take off from 13' on your long run, which would give you the ability to jump on 15' 6 or 16' poles with an appropriately high grip (I am guessing here on what the grip would be for a 13' takeoff point, but it's probably close). I have not tried this myself, but have seen it discussed in various other threads as a way that some elite vaulters use to determine their optimal grip on their competition pole. Perhaps someone with better understanding can elaborate on why this should work...my guess is that the short run stiff pole drill measures your takeoff efficiency which should directly translate to your long run if you know how to take off properly.

Tom


Interesting concept...never heard it before. Specifically for me, whether it be by chance or not, it checks out... anyone else?

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Re: Optimal Grip

Unread postby sduvinage » Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:52 pm

Thats so good to know :D
Thanks guys for the info
I think more vaulters should know this stuff to be able to vault safely and effieciently. :yes:

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Re: Optimal Grip

Unread postby joebro391 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:02 pm

I've heard 2 schools of thought on this.

One being what tsorenson said, that whatever you can grip from a 3-left approach, will be your take-off step on your full run

The other goes as follows: whatever you can grip from a 3-left approach with a straight pole, switch your top hand with your bottom, and wherever your bottom hand ends up (with your comfortable grip width), will be what you can grip from your full run.

I actually haven't checked to see how closely these two idea correlate, but I will check it out tomorrow, on my straight-pole/3-step day. I've heard both of these ideas from Launder, so I can't imagine they don't match up, together {shrugs}. I sure hope that there are some exceptions to these "tests" as my max straight-pole grip is around 12'3 and, in order for me to grip 14'6 (the highest I've ever gripped in competition is 14') I'd have to take off around 14'. so yea...we'll see what i can max out, tomorrow. I'll let everyone know. -6P
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Re: Optimal Grip

Unread postby tsorenson » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:11 pm

The fact that there is a correlation seems to boil down to this:
Basically, the lesson is to get your grip up as high as safely possible while staying behind the pole on your 3 step stiff pole drill, to improve your takeoff technique, which will make you a better vaulter from a longer run, allowing you to grip higher, and take off from farther out.

This ties in with several other threads and may help clarify the importance of this drill to those who are not using it. I did not use this drill for many years because I did not understand its importance, but have enjoyed recent success largely due to using it, both with the kids I am coaching and myself. Thank you to those on this website who have shared info regarding this and other helpful drills that can make pole vaulting safer!

Good luck!
TS

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Re: Optimal Grip

Unread postby joebro391 » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:31 am

RESULTS

SAND PIT: (14' 165)

1 Left: 10'3
2 Left: 10'9

REGULAR PIT: (14' 170)

3 Lefts: 12'1

all in all...i'm pretty disappointed by these results :( . Though, about the above-mentioned tests check out, equally. Either way, both have my max-out grip around 13'9, with a free take-off at around 12'1. Any thoughts?? I need to get that grip up...i felt like i was jumping pretty well...and had some decent speed...will i always be limited by my height and speed??... :crying: -6P
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Re: Optimal Grip

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:52 am

Assuming that you were going for max grip on all 3 of these trials, your 2-left trial doesn't make any sense. You should have been able to muster up enough more speed than on your 1-left trial to get about half-way between your 1-left and your 3-left trials ... so why couldn't you do about 11-2? :confused:


joebro391 wrote: ... I need to get that grip up...i felt like i was jumping pretty well...and had some decent speed...will i always be limited by my height and speed??...

I wouldn't focus solely on grip height. That's important, but there's lots of other important things to work on too ... grip height and runway speed are only 2 metrics.

What's more important than grip height is top-hand-height just after takeoff (just when the pole hits the box). That's like grip height, but it includes the stretch and the jump on takeoff. So grip height gets you most of this metric, but you improve it by having a tall plant, and jumping off the ground vigorously on takeoff.

Runway speed is also important, but what really counts is your takeoff speed. You can be fast down the runway, but brake during takeoff. Or vice versa, you can be slower down the runway, but accelerate into the takeoff.

You will notice that both of these "extras" have to do with optimizing your technique just before ... and during ... takeoff.

In the bottom half of your vault, you can also improve your performance by adding energy to the system ... by your whip technique. And during your extension, you can add even more energy by extending efficiently ... in unison with the pole ... and minimizing leakage.

You will notice that these also have to do with optimizing your technique.

So all in all, your TECHNIQUE is your limiting factor ... not your runway speed or your grip. Even elite vaulters RARELY (if ever) perfect their technique ... so don't despair ... there's ALWAYS lots of room for improvement ... even if you think you're capping your grip and your runway speed.

Kirk
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Re: Optimal Grip

Unread postby kcvault » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:29 am

6p the only one of your marks that makes any since to me is your 3 left mark. Do the one two and three left drills into a regular pit and see if you get different result. I said once before I have seen you touch a ten foot rim start using that jumping ability. Think about this if you are running from 3 lefts and you are holding 12-8 if you jump up and get your top hand to 10 feet, what does this mean? It means you only have to roll the pole two feet with your runway speed. Jump up and hold a good take off position and you will get into the pit easily from 3 lefts holding 12'8.

---Kasey

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Re: Optimal Grip

Unread postby Pogo Stick » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:23 pm

joebro391 wrote:RESULTS

SAND PIT: (14' 165)

1 Left: 10'3
2 Left: 10'9

REGULAR PIT: (14' 170)

3 Lefts: 12'1

all in all...i'm pretty disappointed by these results :( . Though, about the above-mentioned tests check out, equally. Either way, both have my max-out grip around 13'9, with a free take-off at around 12'1. Any thoughts?? I need to get that grip up...i felt like i was jumping pretty well...and had some decent speed...will i always be limited by my height and speed??... :crying: -6P


Here are, for comparison, Bubka's numbers:
http://iaaf-rdc.ru/eng/docs/pub/0001e.html

Code: Select all

year   result   grip   3 lefts   3 lefts   diff.   diff.
       cm       cm     grip cm   grip ft   cm      ft
1981   540      470    390       12'10"    80      2' 7-1/4"
1982   555      485    403       13' 3"    82      2' 8-1/4"
1983   572      505    415       13' 7"    90      2'11-1/4"
1984   594      510    420       13' 9"    90      2'11-1/2"
1985   600      512    420       13' 9"    92      3' 0-1/4"
1986   601      515    425       13'11"    90      2'11-1/2"
1987   603      515    425       13'11"    90      2'11-1/2"
1988   606      515    430       14' 1"    85      2' 9-1/2"
-- Pogo

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Re: Optimal Grip

Unread postby joebro391 » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:41 pm

KC: possibly tomorrow i'm gonna go back and get new results, in a regular pit (and not spend so much time in the sand-pit, which may have tired me out a bit by the time i went over to the regular pit).

wow, thanks for those numbers pogo. I think that should be one of my goals this season, to get my 3-left straight pole grip to 12'10, or there abouts.

-6P
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