Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

[KirkB]

Forget ME. I don't care about ME at the moment... But I guess we can't ...

[sigh]

PP, KC has been quite clear in his last 2 posts that it's NOT about YOU. His main point now ... which you apparently missed ... is that you're doing the vaulters you coach a disservice by teaching them incorrectly. You're so egotistical that you STILL think it's all about you!

Since you all seem to like picking on me, I'll tell you that the way I have done this drill has helped me significantly.

Yes ... and you told me that the Whip-Hinge drill has also helped you significantly ... but you were doing that one wrong too!

Your argument that you're better than last year doesn't hold any water. Of COURSE you're going to be better than last year ... even if only becuz you've grown physically in that time. The objective is not just to get better each year ... the objective is to OPTIMIZE or MAXIMIZE your improvement each year!

Don't let your ego hold you back!

The athletes that I have use this drill (in the same manner) have improved much more than I have in the same amount of time because they have someone to coach them (me).

This suggests that if you HAD a coach, you would improve much more. So why don't you just admit that?

Actually, you DO have a coach ... if you would only listen. You have KC and RG who have been more than patient with you. They have FAR MORE coaching and/or vaulting experience than you have. And they rely on their HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE ... and personal guidance by some very good coaches ... as well as their KNOWLEDGE and INTELLECT to coach and to vault.

PP, until you vault 5.00+, YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY. In fact, your credibility is BELOW ZERO, and people reading your posts on ANY topic now will read them with more ... MUCH MORE ... than a grain of salt.

You've dug a hole for yourself, PP, and the only way you can dig your way out is to put up some real numbers on the scoreboard ... either as a coach or as a vaulter. Until then, you're just a parrot that blindly quotes BTB2.

I'm done.

Kirk

[powerplant42]

Ask altius if HE'S jumped 5m. HA! That's ridiculous KB!

And of course I wish I'd had a coach there to tell me what I was doing wrong. But I didn't. I had to deal with it... And because it's an auto-corrective drill, that isn't TOO much of a problem. BUT THIS DRILL IS NOT AUTO-CORRECTIVE IF THE GRIP IS NOT AT ASOP!!!

KC, you've taken altius's quote out of context. It doesn't mean what you think it means. Read it more closely... You said:

I don't think any of us are arughing about testing your abilities in order to see your progress. We are simple saying there is some things you need to do differently that you can only learn by lowering your grip and making them your focus.

So it is not a question of gripping high and letting the form come - it is - get the TO and body positions right and you can then grip higher

I totally agree with what Altius is saying. This is something else brooks told me that I find to be excellent advice. He told me don't let your ego get in your way at practice. You do not need to be on a huge pole with a high grip. you need to learn technique, and the height will come. Just read Becca's post and must say that is exactly how this drill and the take off should be taught and how it should be thought of. I am not going to take anymore shots at you but am simple going to leave you with this. The numbers will show.

First off, what he's talking about is NOT "mastering the drill at a certain grip, then move up", he's saying "if your grip can move up then you've improved your technique."

Secondly, since we like quoting altius so much (which I'd rather not do, but it seems that you'll believe him about this but not me):

So once you do know about where you can grip from 2/4/6 steps you should get your grip up there almost immediately and then try first to improve your take off - and then the other positional elements - so you can push your grip up - a centimetre at a time perhaps!!

"Grip height does not tell anything about quality of performing drill." Not true - which is why Petrov/Bubka used this drill from 6 steps - 3 lefts - to test the efficiency of the take off. I think you will find that in the HOLLY book! Everyone should use it in that way once they have mastered it.

(And PLEASE don't say, "PP, you're not even CLOSE to mastering the drill... SO LOWER YOUR GRIP!" because it is NOT about ME! If you want to argue about that I suggest you PM me... I've addressed 'mastery' in this thread already, but I'll ask altius again in hopes of a reply: how long before vaulters are maxing out their grip with this drill in the Adelaide system?)

So it is NOT JUST A TEST TO BE USED ON OCCASION (at least according to altius, Petrov, Parnov, ... ME)! Do you all not see that I'm basically standing in on their behalf!? Sure, I may not be 'qualified', (whatever that means...) but the people I'm getting this stuff ARE qualified. I still don't think people are understanding that.

I'm incredibly frustrated with this and am very close to saying something really stupid, so I'm leaving this thread for a few days before I actually DO dig myself a hole. I suggest everyone (myself included) chills out and remembers that this stuff isn't nearly as important as we're making it seem.

[KirkB]

Ask altius if HE'S jumped 5m. HA! That's ridiculous KB!

We KNOW that Altius is not an ex-elite pole vaulter. But he has over a decade of PV coaching experience for each meter in jumping that he lacks. How many DECADES of experience coaching do you have, PP?

If you re-read my post ... without letting your ego jar your thought process ... you'll see that I clearly stated "coaching and/or vaulting experience".

They have FAR MORE coaching and/or vaulting experience than you have.

If you missed that, then you've taken my quote out of context ... ONCE AGAIN! And don't be nit-picky about this, just becuz I said that a paragraph before I mentioned that you need 5.00+ to be credible.

... So it is NOT JUST A TEST TO BE USED ON OCCASION (at least according to altius, Petrov, Parnov, ... ME)! Do you all not see that I'm basically standing in on their behalf!? Sure, I may not be 'qualified', (whatever that means...) but the people I'm getting this stuff ARE qualified. I still don't think people are understanding that.

Hmm ... I thought it WASN'T about YOU!

These are grown men that you're "speaking on behalf of", PP. They don't need an argumentative parrot that adds no value. They can ... and do (Altius and Baggett) ... speak on their own behalf on PVP ... when THEY want to speak. You just muddy the waters ... since YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY!

If you were demonstrating the drill PROPERLY then we would be more ready to accept anything you say ... but your lack of credibility ... and your ego ... are still your worst enemies.

I'm more than done.

Kirk

[ILPV]

I wish powerplant was my coach i could raise my PR a whole 6 inches
but then my PR would be 11-6 so i could just go out and buy BTB and take over coaching at his school cuz thats apparently all you need

[altius]

He is actually quite a nice guy - I like his mom too! His heart is in the right place even if his head is a little screwed up at present - perhaps because of all the folk attacking him???? Is it not time to - let it be -as a wise man once said?

[baggettpv]

Ok High school dudes that think you have an idea..... If you can't jump from 3 lefts, 5 feet over your standing grip with your body behind the pole, left leg extended in a jumping position, lead leg driving up then you have no right to discuss this issue. You need to listen, apply and reflect.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[Barto]

Ok High school dudes that think you have an idea..... If you can't jump from 3 lefts, 5 feet over your standing grip with your body behind the pole, left leg extended in a jumping position, lead leg driving up then you have no right to discuss this issue. You need to listen, apply and reflect.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

Thank you.

[kcvault]

I wish powerplant was my coach i could raise my PR a whole 6 inches
but then my PR would be 11-6 so i could just go out and buy BTB and take over coaching at his school cuz thats apparently all you need

I get very frustrated with PP obviously but I will say this I am impressed that he has read B2B so carefully and tries very hard to follow what it says. There are just some things that you can only learn through your own experience and with out being able to watch a good coach everyday and learn from them it would be very difficult to apply those principles. His logic is not all bad logic. He is correct in saying that to low a grip allows you to cheat and that the ability to continue to grip higher can only come from an increase in athletic ability or an increase in technique. He just does not realize that when stalling out every time it is very difficult to learn that technique just like when the grip is very low it is hard to learn that technique. There are many drills to do that could help and with out a coach right there it would be a great hindrance on the ability to learn but not impossible.

PP I believe it would be very helpful for you to do the drill the way RG described it. You can apply your same logic since the way she coaches it it is impossible for the athlete to cheat. Having them jump over the plug each time and raising there grip until they just barely cant do forces them to have a free take off and catch with there hands as high as possible. Then at the point where the tip is just barely touching the ground she Tells them they can take off better and has them do it until they are able to jump over the plug at that height causing them to jump up and get there hands up better then they ever had before. She then starts raising there grip up and tells them still to to continue to try to jump over the plug though they may be able to cheat now with the low grip you can here when they do because of the sound that is made. Consequently jumping up and catching as high as possible generally puts you in a proper take off position. The grip should continually be pushed up at this point until the optimal grip to learn proper body position is reached. This is not the ASOP but probable 6 to 8 inches lower then the ASOP. Anyway an experienced coach would know from the amount of pole speed about how high this is. This is a grip that allows the athlete to learn but does not allow them to cheat if pole speed becomes to great or to little the grip can be appropriately adjusted from here. From here once the athlete learns a good take off and take off position, and is able to hold there trail leg and hips back the grip needs to continue to be inched up a finger at a time making sure the athlete continues to do things right, the better they do things the higher they will be able to grip. Though each day the vaulter will be able to get to there optimal grip faster and go from there there always need to be a progression to get there. Allowing the vaulter to warm up and reinforce the things they learned the practice before. Especially what was learned in the part where they are jumping over the plug since a high free take off is so essential to the vault.

RG I am sure I left something important out or explained something wrong tell me if I did. And Altius if you read this tell me if you agree or if I am completely missing something.

---Kasey

[powerplant42]

This is my last post in this thread... I think we all realize it has become unproductive, and I'm just a hair short of the 5' "rule"... I'm just going to summarize my whole argument one last time for posterity.

The point of a drill is NOT to be good at the drill. The point of a drill is to build technical skills and transfer them to the real action (vaulting).

The major benefit of this particular drill is that take-off energy is more important to rotating the pole because there is less runway speed. As the grip increases this vertical impulse becomes more important to the success of the repetition. When the grip is lowered, runway speed can be used.

Thus, at higher grips it is necessary to jump UP. At lower grips, it is not. If the intermediate - elite athlete is gripping lower than ASOP for any significant period of time (longer than a warm-up), then he is likely to begin to engrain a flat take-off.

Furthermore, the quicker the pole rotates the less time the athlete has to establish key positions and perform the critical movements which the drill is trying to improve.

If the athlete is performing the drill poorly at ASOP, there are two viable options:

1. Leave the grip and run alone and coach him (this can be done auto-correctively but another person coaching is preferrable). This course of action makes sense because the athlete must make conscious efforts to improve the technical elements of the jump. If the athlete makes an improvement, then the grip can be raised higher! Simple! The fact that he is performing poor repetitions does not necessarily mean that the real jump's technical elements will suffer AS LONG AS he is making conscious efforts to improve. The high grip better simulates the real stresses (physical and psychological) of the real jump, thus because the athlete is working toward performing the drill well at the accurate levels of stress (not to mention the timing is more accurate), he is likely to have much higher transfer from drill to vault.

2. Bring the run in (decrease step count) and keep the athlete gripping at ASOP (which has moved down of course). This effectively makes the drill easier while actually putting even higher emphasis on the upspringing take-off. This accomplishes the same thing as lowering the grip except it doesn't sacrifice the training of the vertical impulse.

These are the best two options if the mistakes being made are minor (as in the drill looks like it's being done by a non-beginner... if it looks like the athlete is a beginner, then he should be treated as one and totally retaught the drill). These also work for errors that are contingent AND non-contingent upon grip height... It's coach's discretion on which choice to go with during the course of a session (taking into account the whole contingent/non-contingent thing as well as what level of performance the athlete is at, his psychological state, and other factors).

This drill is also not beneficial as a test unless the grip is up as high as the athlete can put it (safely). If the athlete can move his grip up, then he has either gained strength/speed or improved his technique.

This "test" version of the drill (ASOP grip) should not be used exclusively in the manner of "testing" (meaning "every once in a while"). Think about the concept of "practice tests" if it helps you understand it at all... Do it more and more and you get better at it.

This drill is also taught this way by altius, Parnov, Petrov, etc.

I can't spell it out much more clearly... Keep the athlete's grip up at ASOP!!!

I think I've covered everything I need to... If I forgot something I'll put it in THIS post. If you have an issue with something I said, PM me please.

Good bye! Happy Thanksgiving!

[pv161]

The point of a drill is NOT to be good at the drill.

I guess this means when you get good at a drill there is no point in doing it anymore. Since you seem to be one of the main posters on here I'm curious what your qualifications are? how old are you? how long have you coached? how high have you jumped? how high have your vaulters jumped?

[kcvault]

prosperity vertical impulse,upspringing take-off contingent AND non-contingent, ASOP.

The words you use to exsplain pole vaulting make me laugh. If nothing else this thread is etertaining.

The fact that he is performing poor repetitions does not necessarily mean that the real jump's technical elements will suffer AS LONG AS he is making conscious efforts to improve.

I could make a consious effort to do math but if I don't learn the concepts I won't get the problems right. If I am able to grip higher in the vault by over bending the pole by this logic I would be getting better because I am making a consious effort to improve. Read my last post. Like I said you can apply your same logic to the way RG sugests doing the drill. The difference is the way she suggest doing the drill there is no possibility for developing bad habits.

---Kasey

[vault3rb0y]

I can vouch that his heart is in the right place, and he is passionate about the vault and helping others.

Altius, i remember you and I used to get into tussles several years ago over "who is qualified to give advice on the pole vault?" (I'm egotistical too so I'll make this about me ) Looking back, i can see both sides of the argument and we both made good points, but in the end I learned where my knowledge ended, and did not cross the line until I had personally studied under great coaches enough to expand my knowledge further. Essentially, the coaching techniques and philosophies that brought me from a 10' vaulter to a 16' vaulter are the ones i applied when helping others. And throughout that process, my understanding of the vault has grown and CHANGED as well. It continues to change and will keep changing until i die. I'm not talking about a specific drill or technique, i'm talking about the pole vault and all its domains as a whole.

PP, think of the vault like this, and apply what has helped you. But ALSO, even if you have an answer to what someone says, the respect that you show and gain by just listening far exceeds the respect you gain from responding. Stay inside of your domain until it is clear you have the knowledge to expand upon it. Your domain of knowledge is not determined by the size of the book in your hand, it is by the years of experience AND the communication with your peers. Dude, i've (kinda) been in your shoes before. I've been telling an athlete what i thought of their jump and had my coach say "Jason, im the coach here, zip it! You're confusing them!". Take these plugs (and you have plenty at this point) and do not fight them, respect them. Every great in the PV world has gone through this same process.