Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

[vault3rb0y]

This reminds me of a debate i had with a coach once that claimed "hold high and the form will follow". Obviously context is the limiting factor in this statement. It is only true to a certain point. We must determine when that point is.

A possible philosophy- auto-correction works in creating proper technique, until you find a way to achieve a certain result with a different, improper technique.

Back to Wallys music analogy- If you want to play the piano, you could learn quicker by only playing with 4 fingers rather than 10, and play easier songs with much more simplicity. But when you play REAL music, you will have a harder time.


Specifically, holding higher is not the end game. The end game is (for this drill, in my opinion) efficiently converting your speed and take off angle completely into the pole. This requires free take off and proper body position. Holding high can reinforce the need for free take off and proper body position, unless you become too focused on the result and not the process.


I think it is vital to note that we have moved past the point of biomechanics and kinesthetic pedagogy (I'm a kines student at Penn State right now and for the LOVE OF GOD can we not use these big words, they confuse me. Lets call it "physics"). We are now moving from physics to training philosophy, where there really is NO right answer. Different strokes for different folks. gradual learning vs flooding, part vs whole model learning, etc... are still be investigated and are not agreed upon by coaches. That is why if you have 10 coaches, you will get 10 plans for you to get better. Argueing these points, therefore, will yield no results. Just acknowledge that there is a spectrum of training methods and no magic training method, what works will ultimately be somewhere in the middle.

[powerplant42]

There will never be a "unified theory" of the coaching process.

But don't take this to mean that there is not a proper way to utilize a drill. This one isn't that difficult!

[altius]

"where there really is NO right answer." I have to respond to that! In relation to this drill there is a right answer - and I have provided it! Take a look at the very first frames of the teaching chapter on the BTB2 dvd - they show two beginners doing the drill from one step, followed by three more experienced athletes (doing it correctly). Following this, athletes are shown moving to 2/4/6 steps doing it at least as well as I expect young athletes to at that stage of their development. Of course the Isinbayeva sequence at the end of the dvd shows her doing the same drill - both stiff and flexible poles

Please do not let us return to the bad old days when there was no accepted model of technique or training - to the myths and misunderstandings I have continually railed about. I just cannot believe that this topic has had so much press! I suspect that one reason for this is that some folk dont bother to read the preceding posts -and I must admit that I dont read those of folk I know have never coached anyone - no matter how clever they are or what they are studying at college. Sorry 3PO.

Let me make a final effort tho. These short approach stiff pole TO drills have two purposes in my view. One is to develop an upspringing TO - preferably a pre jump. Two is to set up the body positions that are essential if the athlete is to be able to add energy thru the remainder of the vault. One leads into the other - as the action of completely finishing the TO with the upspringing jump puts the TO leg into a good position to subsequently initiate its forward whip swing. Similarly the forward upward punch of the lead knee/thigh adds energy to the system when it is subsequently blocked - but positions the flexed lead leg to drive over the head as the athlete moves to cover the pole.

The relationship between the two components and grip height is that an upspringing TO will generate pole speed while holding the TO leg down keeps the com of the system lower - this allows the pole to roll forward more quickly. So it is not a question of gripping high and letting the form come - it is - get the TO and body positions right and you can then grip higher - an important aspect of vaulting to the highest level. However as I indicated in an earlier post if you do not grip reasonably high early on you tend not to jump up (you do not finish the TO) but the pole still rolls forward too fast for you to stay behind it so you cannot set up the positions you want. In other words you will develop bad habits from gripping too low. Clearly that phase is artificial because in an actual vault the forward whip of the TO leg is not delayed for an instant -however it is critical to do the drill this way if you want young athletes to learn good body positions - which can also be checked on the high bar to ensure they know what they should be aiming for.

Hope this answers your question Becca but I really am trying to put this to bed -surely there are other more pressing topics than this one.

If there are to be any responses to this I would like them to come from folk who have actually coached young athletes. Uninformed opinion is simply that - uninformed opinion.

Incidentally I know a least ten coaches who agree - I believe I can say with some certainty that Petrov, Parnov, Botcharnikov, Stewart, Rippon, Boyd, Baggett, Bailey X 2, Allison, Isaacs, Bertolami, Bishop, Berardi, Cahill et al would have their athletes executing this drill in the same way - along with many other elements of their training.

[rainbowgirl28]

So it is not a question of gripping high and letting the form come - it is - get the TO and body positions right and you can then grip higher - an important aspect of vaulting to the highest level.

Thank you.

I think that you have seen a lot of coaches use the drill with too low of a grip, so you emphasize having the grip high enough to be able to execute the drill properly.

At the other extreme we have an athlete who is focused on gripping as high as possible, but is unable to get the proper body positions while doing so.

I have personally trained with at least two of the coaches you just mentioned as using this drill, and I can say from experience that their athletes do not look overgripped when they do the drill the way PP does.

[KirkB]

... These short approach stiff pole TO drills have two purposes in my view. One is to develop an upspringing TO - preferably a pre jump. Two is to set up the body positions that are essential if the athlete is to be able to add energy thru the remainder of the vault. One leads into the other ...

Thanks for taking the time to clarify this drill, Altius.

You should write a book about your PV training methods! You credibility is unquestioned.

Ditto for Baggett.

Kirk

[KirkB]

... I'd like to see you adopt Roman's pole climbing drill. ...

RG, I think that's an excellent idea!

I've only seen LoJo do this drill ... but he's retired now. We need an up-and-coming young protégé to fill his void.

PP, are you up to the challenge? If you demo this drill properly ... and publish your vid on youtube/PVP ... it would do wonders to your credibility!

It's explained quite thoroughly in Appendix B of BTB2, so it shouldn't be too hard to learn. Plus you have LoJo's vid to refer to ...

Kirk

[vault3rb0y]

No one is questioning the correct technical model.

No one is questioning how drills should be done to training for the technical model, either.

Fact is, each drill can be used to imitate certain aspects of the vault, and by modifying certain parts of the drill for certain athletes, you can emphasize certain parts maybe overlooked by gripping very high or moving too slowly.

If i have learned anything from my time as an athlete, it is that 10 different coaches will give you 10 different training regimens, yet they all could be following the same technical model! Although they are interwoven somewhat, Biomechanics can be proven (to a point) while training theories are a much harder sell, at least for me personally. As long as my coach and I are working toward the same goal biomechanically, i will put my trust in him to help get me there. Alan you know personally the struggles ive had with this, and i feel it is a fair compromise to take the physics and drills behind petrov's model, and allow my coach to think up his own drills or modifications of drills to build upon that foundation, given that we are still working toward the same model and using all the drills in the book, yet maybe some "special" modifications for me personally, here and there, to get a certain result. This is what i mean when i say training philosophies have no right answer, because it would be very hard to prove scientifically (the way you can with biomechanics) that one way of training is better than another. It is all learning from experience. The only way to do that is to try different things and see how they work toward your technical model.


DISCLAIMER DISCLAIMER: I HAVE NEVER COACHED A YOUNG ATHLETE (aside from multiple volunteer hours at camps and clinics) AND I SPEAK ONLY FROM PERSONAL LEARNING AND OBSERVATIONAL EXPERIENCE. TAKE IT AS YOU WILL.

[powerplant42]

I have been doing Roman's pole climbing drill for 3 years now and I have the kids I coach (yes, I do and have coached people through multiple seasons and years) do it too. It's great! I'll put up a video soon with that in it.

I think you're all missing the "essence" of "correct"... I'm by no means "perfect", but I AM "correct". You can teach a beginner to do the drill "correctly" probably within 3-4 sessions. They will not look like Bubka! But if they keep training up right around ASOP then they're well on their way.

When you stop being "correct", it's not time to move the grip down, it's probably time to stop training for the day.

[altius]

"because it would be very hard to prove scientifically (the way you can with biomechanics) that one way of training is better than another".

A brave statement from a college student - and not surprisingly - it is not true!
You will only get a major divergence of opinion about training among coaches who have a limited scientific background -they are the ones who introduce myths into both training and technique because they dont know the theory. I say again if you look at the best coaches you will find more commonalities than differences because there are scientific principles underpinning their work. The principle of transfer of training is one, the principle of progression is another and the principle of specificity is another. What course did you say you were studying 3PO? Was it Sports Science?? Whatever -I suggest you do a bit more study before you make statements like that!

XXXX I have been sucked into this stuff yet again!!!

[vault3rb0y]

I think it had more to do with multiple conversations about this topic with Ph.D's in ex. phys. and Ph.D's in aerospace engineering who have coached for over 15 years, have something to say from a scientific perspective about biomechanics and training theory. I'm nothing without the people that teach me (including you).

I agree that most elite coaches have more similarities than differences in training techniques, but thats just it, they still have differences! And even a college student can infer that those differences arise from two things:

1.) A lack of experience/knowledge to understand the correct way.

2.) A specific athletes needs in regards to training.

Also, it is fallacious to say "He does it this way, and he does well. So I must do it that way!" .... only in regards to training theory though. Biomechanics can be proved more easily like i said, and is a lot less fallacious.


Altius i respect what you say a lot, and to be honest even while we are arguing I am absorbing the information you give to me. There's no doubt we are working towards the same goals in this sport, and we all have a lot to learn from you. So I'm going to quit bickering and say you win, and head back out to my biomechanics lab to learn stuff, because i have plenty to learn .

[dj]

Hye

I’m not quite sure why this become an argument?? And I don’t want to go back and read every detail to find the A.. that is unimportant, I think.

I think Allan has tried, correctly, to explain the simplicity involved here.

I see it as this… this is a training drill.. as in all “training” the fundamental principle is/should be progressive over load..

Second to this is follow the “physics.”

This drill from 6 steps (by using the maximum “speed” you can obtain from that distance) will simply encourage you to improve your technique so you can continue to raise the grip.

The overlaying concept is to raise the grip (progressive overload) as high as possible but with two key “markers” as your guide. One stay behind the pole and two move the pole to just past/at/too vertical.

Remember I have stated on here several times that the “action” speaks louder than the “picture.”

In this case it might “look’ like you are doing things right with a low grip BUT the action and “physics” is much surer indicator.

I have seen vaulters use this “drill” from 6 steps on the runway and into the pit (maybe Bubka) to determine where their grip should be for the meet on that day on a bending pole.

For example if you can grip a stiff pole at 14 feet from six steps and move that grip to vertical on a “pop up”, and stay behind the pole, that would mean you could use a takeoff at 14 feet with the grip that matched the box.. takeoff and grip “triangle”. From my chart that would mean a 5 meter grip and a 5.75 vault.

I also saw Volkov use two similar drills, one on a bending pole in 1979 at the World Championships in Montreal to give him an idea of where he should be grip wise for the day and competition.


dj

[powerplant42]

Altius: I'm sorry!!! I didn't think this would happen!

There will never be a "unified theory" of coaching/training, but that doesn't mean that there isn't one that could hypothetically be reached... There might be more than one way to skin a cat, but there is one singular BEST way. I could drive to the store practically infinite ways, but I'd be wasting my time with all but one. Of course, I'll still get the cat skinned and I'll still eventually get to the store, but how efficient was it? Just because not everyone agrees does not mean that there is not one correct way (in general)... Sure, it might be an asymptote, but obviously some are closer to it than others.

There are certain pedagogical aspects with regards to kinesthetics that are absolute... For example, we KNOW that if an athlete performs a complex activity for the first time (like taking off) he must concentrate much effort into making it correct, but after a certain period of time it becomes subconscious (and then the athlete does not need to put as much mental energy into the activity). Just one example of a foundational principle.

It is these sorts of pillars that we must keep in mind when analyzing how a drill should be used or when building a large-scale training program. Differences will arise in general approach (that is, NOT taking into account the particular needs of a specific athlete) to training methodology, but this is due to misunderstanding how to apply the pillars to more complex training activities.