Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

[KirkB]

Humor us! Just drop your damn grip and videotape it. Then slowly move it up ... videotaping as you go. Is that so hard?

KB, I did this already.

Is this the one you're referring to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AQBew8FHFA (note: grip moves up and up for each step... see my blog thread for more info... you should be able to tell which are high and which are low...)

In your blog thread, you said ...

the grip was either the same or higher than the one right before it

Here's 6P's youtube comments about those sand vaults ...

much much better, though, between 1:19 and 1:55, you started gripping too high for your current abilities (you sacrificed technique, for grip). remember, grip means nothing if you can't use it. the last 2 were better though, most likely due to either a decrease in grip, or an earlier take-off (the latter is certainly true, either way). -6P

IMO, 6P pretty well nailed it! So after 4 pages of argumentative posting (plus the 8 pages on your blog thread), what I can see is that your BEST attempts at these jagodins is on this vid, yet you're DEFENDING your technique on the reps between 1:19 and 1:55. Is that your position? What a bloody waste of time!

Others say you're not doing the drill properly. Do you REALLY think that you weren't overgripping on any of the attempts between 1:19 AND 1:55?

I'm back to saying just drop your damn grip to the point where you're doing the drill PROPERLY ... then slowly move it back up! And if you move it up TOO MUCH, move it back DOWN a tad! You HAVE NOT already done this! If you had, you wouldn't be stalling out as much as you are. Perhaps you have a different interpretation of ASOP (Almost Stalling Out Point). Between 1:19 and 1:55, your technique has definitely deteriorated ... as 6P says ... and you're stalling out TOO MUCH (IMHO).

I don't dispute that the drill should be done with a grip that forces you to JUMP vigorously on takeoff and hit the pole with the top hand LONG. If your grip is too low, then you will naturally hunch your shoulders (a bad habit). But between 1:19 and 1:55, you're stalling out too much ... meaning you're gripping too high. If it was only a single bad attempt, then I'd say OK, you fixed it on the next attempt by jumping better. But YOU HAD 5 BAD JUMPS IN A ROW! And according to your blog, you didn't adjust your grip DOWN once! That's not learning at the ASOP, that's stupidity! You should have lowered your grip after the SECOND one! If you challenge this, then show me where BTB2 says that you should NEVER lower your grip if you're stalling out too much.

Come on, PP, use some common sense.

Kirk

[powerplant42]

I guess we have differing definitions of "almost stalling out".

[KirkB]

I've read Chapter 18 of BTB2 (pp 151-162) quite thoroughly ... and re-read pp 157-158 (the part about the short run stiff pole sand vaulting drills), and I can't for the life of me find any reference to a definition of the ASOP (Almost Stalling Out Point). I wonder if that was just an acronym that you made up, PP ... to try to make your point?

On pg 157, it DOES talk about "a point where they can only just drive the pole to the vertical and get on the front of the pad safely" ... which is explained in the context of a TEST where "The grip height is measured and recorded". I get that ... as a TEST.

However, it's a mistake to extrapolate from that, and say that you should ALWAYS ... on EVERY ATTEMPT ... grip at your absolute maximum grip ... or your max grip + 1. That would be taking BTB2 out of context ... for devious purposes ... to slant the argument in your favor.

The fact that you were very close to your ASOP on FIVE of your sand vault attempts in the vid ... with poor form ... might be fine if the coach told you that he was going to TEST you, and measure your highest grip. But where was the coach, and where was the test? And where are the test results?

And was your technique on these 5 reps correct or not? It's fairly obvious to me ... and to others ... that you hadn't yet got the technique going well enough yet to test your grip. You still needed more practice, and more COACHING. Do you still not get that?

By your own admission, you were still getting over an injury, and hadn't done this drill in quite awhile until these 2 vid days. So IMHO, that's far too early to be TESTING yourself for how high you can grip! That time would have been better spent improving your TECHNIQUE at a slightly lower grip ... just as several posters have been trying to tell you.

I'm a little late in joining this discussion, but here's your quote from earlier in this thread ...

If I'm doing the drill alright when gripping X and I'm "moving the pole in really really fast and [I] land in the center of the sand/pit" I should move the grip up slightly... I'm now gripping X + 1" and can't do the drill quite as well as before, but I'm still rotating the pole fairly quickly... You're saying that I should move the grip back down!?

This depends on the quality of your technique at each grip. You should not let your technique to deteriorate to the point where you're doing the drill incorrectly. If it does, you need to do something about it. Either (a) fix the flaw; (b) put more oomph into the drill (e.g. jump harder); or (c) lower your grip. If you know your flaw, then just fix it; if you know you can put more oomph into the next attempt, then do it; but if you've already tried to do (a) or (b) once or twice and you're still not rotating the pole "fairly quickly" ... then DON'T CONTINUE TO MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE 5 TIMES IN A ROW! Instead, LOWER YOUR GRIP!

In summary, I'd say the ASOP for a GRIP TEST is clear ... it's how high you can possibly hold without stalling out (and get onto the front of the pad safely), and it's fine for testing yourself on just a few jumps near the end of the training reps.

But don't confuse this ASOP with the speed at which you should normally rotate the pole towards the pit ... for LEARNING how to plant, jump, and stay behind the pole. If you want to put a DIFFERENT label on that (to avoid the confusion which I think you have), I'd call it something like "Optimal Training Grip".

Kirk

[powerplant42]

ASOP is an acronym I made up because I thought it would just be useful.

Well, I have to say that I've thought about it more... What really got me thinking was Wally's music analogy...

No, I'm not switching sides. I've come up with a solution that I see solving the problem, as I definitely do see the point that many are trying to make. It does NOT involve moving below ASOP.

Instead of decreasing grip, decrease the STEP COUNT. Slow the drill down so to speak...

I tried this with a teammate (who I basically coach)... His trail-leg bending problem was worse than mine for some reason, and it didn't matter how quickly the pole was rotating, it just wasn't happening. So what I did was remove all runway speed and had him go from 0... Then back to 1 I believe. It got fixed.

That's all the latitude I can possibly see with this! It is not JUST a test... or, it is a test that you should just keep taking... because if you do better (move the pole more quickly) then you've either improved strength/speed or TECHNIQUE!

[kcvault]

KB is dead on on both his post. I would re read them several times, really think about them. Then do what he says so you can actually get better.

---Kasey

[somechick]

Oh my! This boggles the mind...

[powerplant42]

Well, I give up. The whole argument is out there. I've got nothing else to say except that I'm unconvinced of any non-Launder/Petrov type approach to the drill, which is clearly not as most are speaking of.

[rainbowgirl28]

Well, I give up. The whole argument is out there. I've got nothing else to say except that I'm unconvinced of any non-Launder/Petrov type approach to the drill, which is clearly not as most are speaking of.

Earlier in this thread, you accused us all of being racist or whatever the term is for not dropping everything we are doing and embracing Alan's ideas. Yet it seems you are doing the same thing in reverse.

A coach can still follow the Launder model and use a lower grip on this drill. In fact, it seems like it is pretty much impossible to achieve a free takeoff with a grip at your ASOP, so some coaches might be able to better train athletes in this model by not using this drill.

I'd like to see you adopt Roman's pole climbing drill. He's a Petrov disciple, no? Isn't that another auto-correcting drill?

[baggettpv]

Yup Becca. This thread has really gotten going. Me, I keep it simple. The higher you can hold on a straight pole form 6 step (with the body behind the pole, take-off leg straight, lead leg blocked, etc) then the more efficient a takoff you have. All measurements are Comparative so I use the standing grip heighth (as high as a person can grip with the pole beside them) comapred to their 6 step grip heighth. They Must clear the standards and land on the main pads for the attempt to COUNT!. I posted this all in another thread.
Comparative means that the amount means nothing unless it has many other amounts to compare too. So I use it in every warmup the kids do.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[altius]

" - the Launder model". I have tried to stay out of this debate - boy you guys must have a lot of time on your hands! But there aint no such animal as the Launder model - only an attempt to interpret the Petrov/Bubka model and methods. I suspect that all PP was trying to say is that if you grip too low, the pole rolls forward too fast for the young athlete to establish the key positional elements - Baggett mentioned two - they should be aiming for in this drill - at least after take off. So once you do know about where you can grip from 2/4/6 steps you should get your grip up there almost immediately and then try first to improve your take off - and then the other positional elements - so you can push your grip up - a centimetre at a time perhaps!! Please put this one to bed!

[rainbowgirl28]

" - the Launder model". I have tried to stay out of this debate - boy you guys must have a lot of time on your hands! But there aint no such animal as the Launder model - only an attempt to interpret the Petrov/Bubka model and methods. I suspect that all PP was trying to say is that if you grip too low, the pole rolls forward too fast for the young athlete to establish the key positional elements - Baggett mentioned two - they should be aiming for in this drill - at least after take off. So once you do know about where you can grip from 2/4/6 steps you should get your grip up there almost immediately and then try first to improve your take off - and then the other positional elements - so you can push your grip up - a centimetre at a time perhaps!! Please put this one to bed!

PP seems to believe that all stiff pole vaults should be taken with the highest possible grip that will still get you in the pit, regardless of form.

I agree that too low of a grip does not allow the athlete time to execute a proper takeoff. But I also think that most beginning to intermediate athletes cannot maintain a great takeoff when they are at max grip height.

Alan, do you think that an athlete should only grip as high as possible while still executing a free takeoff, or that they should grip as high as they can rotate into the pit, and then try to make the free takeoff happen with that grip height?

In other words, let's say I have an athlete who can can execute a beautiful free takeoff with a grip of 10'. We then raise the grip until she is stalling out and she gets it up to 10'9, but she can't takeoff free anymore and it starts to look ugly.

Do you think it is better to then drop the grip down to 10' and then raise it a little at a time while maintaining good form, or would it be better to keep it at 10'9?

[KirkB]

... The higher you can hold on a straight pole form 6 step (with the body behind the pole, take-off leg straight, lead leg blocked, etc) then the more efficient a takoff you have. ... They Must clear the standards and land on the main pads for the attempt to COUNT!. I posted this all in another thread. ...

This drill/test is good ... and relevant. If you read Rick's original post, you'll see that it even has Petrov's blessing.

Just don't dive into this drill/test in your first or second practice of the year, when you're ""in a physical state ... where if I do a heavy running workout ... then my legs will go 'pop' ... or your technique will look like crap.

Kirk

EDIT: Here's Rick's drill, as described in his original post ... http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10013&p=76694&hilit=straight+pole+takeoff+drill+baggett#p76694