Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

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Re: Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

Unread postby kcvault » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:43 pm

KC: I think you should talk to altius about this. The athletes in his DVD hit their thigh on the pole, and he even made it known on here that it's good practice. Here's the quote:


No need for discussion I think it is a good thing to do but as I pointed out before you are dependent on it. I am done with this thread for a while because I won't to see what others post. I know you seem to be positive you are right and I hate to keep bringing this up but out of all of the videos of people doing the drill your video is the one that needs the most improvment. The good news is you have more room for improvment then anyone else. The bad news is you do the drill wrong which I would think would cause you to rethink your philosphies. If you continue to think the focus should be on grip height and not on tecknique then you are going to find that your videos remain the ones with the most need of improvment. But if you decide to focus on tecknique allowing you to grip much higher and with a much more tecknically sound drill your improvment will greatly exseed the improvment of those in the other videos. I really want you to anaylize your videos and think of all of the things everyone is saying. However do not think you know more then those who are more exspericed then you. Exspecially on somthing you are unable to do correctly. You do not need to listen to my advice for this but simply to all the very exspericed athletes and coaches taking the time to review your video and trying to help you.

---Kasey

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Re: Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

Unread postby VaultPurple » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:52 pm

KC: I think you should talk to altius about this. The athletes in his DVD hit their thigh on the pole, and he even made it known on here that it's good practice.


In the video the experienced vaulters like Patrick Jesser did not hit hit their hips or thighs on the pole, it was only the beginner guys and a few of the girls.

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Re: Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:57 pm

out of all of the videos of people doing the drill your video is the one that needs the most improvment.


This I disagree with. Sort of. But it's a moot point anyway (for this particular discussion). It isn't about me, remember. I'll PM you about this.

In the video the experienced vaulters like Patrick Jesser did not hit hit their hips or thighs on the pole, it was only the beginner guys and a few of the girls.


A good queue, but not a necessity. There's a difference! :yes:

Do you know how you keep your leg/hips and chest from getting close to the pole in this drill? You push out with the left arm. I might have to do that actually... in a good way though. Another queue altius puts out there actually! The arm, of course, is completely bent out, so it isn't blocking.
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Re: Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:59 pm

kcvault wrote: You do not need to listen to my advice for this but simply to all the very exspericed athletes and coaches taking the time to review your video and trying to help you.

PP, please listen to KC's advice. He's being very patient with you. Annie has also given you some very sound advice.

Humor us! Just drop your damn grip and videotape it. Then slowly move it up ... videotaping as you go. Is that so hard? :confused:

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Re: Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

Unread postby AVC Coach » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:25 pm

This thread is quite entertaining! :yes:

And as for the pats on the back? Yeah, they're nice, but enlightening people to the truth is much more rewarding. THAT'S why I do what I do... for NO other reason.


Come on PP, who do you think you are "enlightening"? What is it that you do again? I'm gonna have to side with kcvault on this one and give up! You win this arguement. You're the greatest pole vault philosophyzer/methologyzer/pedagologicalizer on the planet! You've jumped 11'06" and have coached absolutely nobody that I've ever heard of!


All of these threads you keep creating are pointless if you don't jump high powerplant42 (and I don't mean just higher than 11'06")! The pressure's on you! Prove that your thoughts and processes will actually work. ;) Again, good luck!

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Re: Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:49 pm

Humor us! Just drop your damn grip and videotape it. Then slowly move it up ... videotaping as you go. Is that so hard?


KB, I did this already.

AVC, I haven't jumped high, it's true... What does that mean? It means I haven't jumped high. That's all... I wonder if Petrov has ever cleared a bar! Altius has cleared about 9'. And I haven't coached anyone you've heard of because I don't have real opportunities to coach. Take away school and give me a good athlete and I bet I would.

What if I were the only one on this board that believed in the Petrov model? Sure, more experienced coaches would disagree with me, but I'd be right, wouldn't I? I'm done now because this is just ridiculous. Keep under-gripping your athletes if you want... after all, it's not me that you're hurting. I still care, but apparently I can't do anything about it so I'll stop trying. I see why altius gets so frustrated now... people just pay his book and DVD lipservice but don't put the principles outlined therein into practice! :no:
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Re: Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:09 pm

those "undergripped" pole vaulters jump 16+ and get scholarships because they have less passive phases than you have knowledge of coaching, and thats sayin something! You can call me undergripped, or anyone else that has been coached by the coaches you disagree with, but at the end of the day, the scoreboard is what matters.

Theres a progression in the career of vaulters that coaches like AVC Coach and VaultPurple have seen time after and time again, and they see what works and what doesn't- and when to switch drills or modify their practices to make their vaulters better. I would bet that these practices change a little bit every year as they learn more too! If you think of coaching like this, BTB and the DVD is just a guideline. Any coach worth his salt will change his program as he learns more and as the athlete learns more. Even if you follow those drills, you can emphasize certain parts by the run length, grip hieght, grip width, elevation at take off, etc... all to get the result you are looking for.

Different drills for different skills. There are literally an infinite number of ways to simulate the vault and different variations of ALL these drills.

The truth is, PP, that until you are coached by someone that understands these principles, and for more than just a 3-day camp, you won't truly understand the vault. What you are doing right now is the equivalent of a med-school student writing perscriptions before they do their internship. There is a reason you can't be a doctor until you learn from them first hand. There's only so much you learn from the books.

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Re: Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:35 pm

those "undergripped" pole vaulters jump 16+ and get scholarships because they have less passive phases than you have knowledge of coaching, and thats sayin something! You can call me undergripped, or anyone else that has been coached by the coaches you disagree with, but at the end of the day, the scoreboard is what matters.


I should clear some things up so there's no confusion.

AVC, I think, no, I KNOW that you're a great coach. You've produced outstanding vaulters like Jason here... However, Launder is also a great coach... nobody's going to argue that I hope! But there are conflicting points of view between you two. One has to be right. I'm siding with altius on this one. Don't think for a second that I thought this one up for myself.

"The scoreboard is what matters." Can't agree with that... Ockert Britts jumped 6m+, but would you listen to his coach about take-off? NEVER!!! He SHOULD have the world record. The guy could've jumped 6.30 consistently. Now of course, the grip with the sand jagodin is not quite as big. I'd say it's on level with swinging on a bar with a mixed grip.
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka

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Re: Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

Unread postby somechick » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:04 pm

I am sorry that I come across as arrogant to you, but I must tell you that all I am doing is taking a stance and defending it which takes a certain attitude that I could imagine might come across as arrogance... If something confuses me in someone's posts, I point it out and ask for clarification. If someone is just plain wrong, I make sure that that's made clear so that it won't be used as an antecedent in further discussion. Rarely if ever is it supposed to be spiteful or petty... I am a philosopher, NOT a jerk. Constantly questioning and poking holes in arguments is what we should be doing as we continually try to enlighten one another to the truth. I am a GNOSTIC person, especially with the vault. I am always open to new ideas and points of view, including grip during sand jagodins. I must say, a day or two ago I was beginning to consider the possibility that I was wrong... However, I concluded that I couldn't be because my view was grounded in the sciences of biomechanics and kinesthetic pedagogy. I have now reconvinced myself, and in the process I have actually learned a lot.



You do not point out and ask, you dismiss. Biomechanics and kinesthetic pedagogy? Don't try to intimidate me with fifty cent words. Working as a personal trainer and having the athletic background as well as spending a majority of my college life geared toward a physical education major I know a little something. You have not earned any degrees in these fields. Guess what, THEY HAVE. Many of the coaches on this site hold such degrees and are actively attempting to help your vault. I am more than suspicious that you are not quite certain of the full meanings of the words. As I said, I am not an expert. I am a student of the sport though and I will put the time in to learn from the people who have more experience than myself.

I've thought this through SO thoroughly that I just can't see any way that my side of the argument is not the truth. If something new comes up for the other side, I WILL reconsider and possibly switch! I want to learn!


You have said insessantly that you will not alter at your grip throughout both threads. That is not what you are looking to change. You have been given many reasons that this is incorrect by many reputable sources. I am failing to see any scrap of openmindedness. What are you waiting for, the clouds to part? Here's your proof, people who don't jump like you claim is THE way are jumping higher than you. A clue?

And as for the pats on the back? Yeah, they're nice, but enlightening people to the truth is much more rewarding. THAT'S why I do what I do... for NO other reason.


You are not enlightening. You are being presumptuous. You weren't even born when some of these coaches had begun in the field. Here is facts: You are a high school vaulter who jumps 11'6". Do not attempt to put yourself on that plane until you have secured the necessary degrees, medals or other successes that they have. Furthermore if that is why you post quit masquerading as someone looking for opinions. You are simply wasting the time of the people who could possibly help you on your way to success.

Come on PP, who do you think you are "enlightening"? What is it that you do again? I'm gonna have to side with kcvault on this one and give up! You win this arguement. You're the greatest pole vault philosophyzer/methologyzer/pedagologicalizer on the planet! You've jumped 11'06" and have coached absolutely nobody that I've ever heard of!


Ditto. You know more than everyone else apparently.

So here's the kicker, your only screwing yourself. You don't jump high and you won't until you rethink your apparent awesomeness. By all rights your sheer bad assed-ness should rocket you over a 20'6" bar. At least that's the vibe I'm getting...

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Re: Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:10 pm

Well that's a shame. :no:
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Re: Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

Unread postby kcvault » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:32 pm

Ditto to what everyone else is saying. We all think Alan is a good coach and we all think petrov is the greatest coach you think either of them think you should develop a vault that does not emphasize the fundamentals of the vault? You are not even close to either of these coaches level quit thinking you are. But then again what do all of us know, how could we even try to aruge with someone when we are so intellectually inferior to you. When we know you have not ever done anything wrong because your knowledge comes only from a divine source. Who needs results, coaching experience, years of knowledge of what does and does not work there is a high school student with no experience that knows everything? I am completely done with this thread there is no point in trying to help some one who's opinion is set. Remeber what it says on your signature you're right, you're the all knowing one so dont even try to open your mind, we are the ignorant.

:(

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Re: Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:48 am

Again... a shame. There's no other way to put it.

My 'divine source' is Petrov and Alan themselves. I'm not thinking that I'm at their level, but I AM thinking that THEY are. This high school kid that knows everything is regurgitating information put in him by people that actually really almost do know everything... There's really nothing original in my argument. Keep ignoring that if you'd like and think that just because I haven't cleared 6m or been coaching for half a century whatever I say is utterly worthless, as if it's totally impossible to learn things quickly. I hate to say it, but calling me ignorant and inexperienced doesn't do much for your side of the argument... It just makes you seem mean-spirited. :deadrose: :(

It's sad to see that so many people on here misunderstand this drill... I thought the USA was past all this xenophobia crap! This is how Petrov teaches the drill, how altius teaches it, and I'd suspect it's how Parnov teaches it. None of them are in the US... I'm starting to think we're happy being a unique vaulting country! The technical models our top elites are using certainly do reflect that. Oh well! :(

I really do think this is just a case of group-think... If the dissenting side were only one or two people, I think they'd come around. But because you've all ganged up on me you feel comfortable and thus won't take the time to think rationally, you'll just agree with one another. Simple sociology. I'm hoping that the individuals that I've been in contact with outside of this thread that agree with me come in and back me up! Maybe then you'll realize that I'm not insane! :mad:

My challenge to you all is to step back and REALLY REALLY THINK about the argument I've put up. Not for a minute, not for an hour, but maybe for a week or two. Then come back and we can reassess. :yes:
Last edited by powerplant42 on Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka


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